angelic disharmony

Now that the ghastly cat* has escaped from its dungeon (fearlessly guarded by a fierce terrier), I might as well talk about this again, but hopefully for the last time. An other reason for talking about this is that I, and I think other critics as well, feel that sometimes the only option is to reject — or at least to take exception from — certain kinds of behaviour that is undertaken in order to, supposedly, further waldorf criticism, but seriously risk doing the opposite. (If I’m even actually doing, or wanting to do, much of that waldorf criticism anymore is another matter, which perhaps I’ll deal with in another post.) Not that it should matter, but sometimes one feels that one should say something, in order not to be associated with something one can’t accept.

As some of you know, although perhaps not all (since there has been little reason to draw attention to any of this), a European couple residing in New Zeeland has chosen to take action against a Steiner school (the Titirangi Steiner School), claiming that the school has abused their ‘human rights’. Angel Garden’s and Steve Paris’s children were expelled because of the behaviour of the parents. Even the school has conceded that this was the case. And this is where people might come to develop a certain understanding for the school’s actions. I don’t know what really happened, of course, but the incidents that led to all of this were, according to the parents, incidents of bullying of one of their children. What seems apparent to me, though, from the parents subsequent behaviour, is their propensity for exaggeration and distortion. Not to speak of that unfortunate tendency to communicate in a way that is aggressive — basically, every other sentence is formulated as a kind of ultimatum — and making more or less thinly veiled threats. I’m not sure they realize any of this, but that is another matter. It is how they come across, and I’m personally not interested in being the recipient of such tomes.

Perhaps it’s better to say as little as possible. It’s difficult to deal in any reasonable way with accusations that are patently ridiculous, and to defend oneself against them only has you falling into that bottomless pit of your ‘opponent’. Moreover, I have generally suspected — and hoped — that people who come across the couple will fairly quickly see that things don’t quite add up. I never co-operated with them and never agreed to assist them, apart from answering a couple of e-mails before I knew better, and to sum up what happened (as far as my own involvement with them goes): I disagreed with some things they were doing and they wished to post unacceptable comments (containing, just by the way, things that had nothing to do with waldorf or anthroposophy) on my blog. The demands and expectations they place on other people significantly exceed what any human being is likely to be able to give them. (Or, for that matter, want to give them.) And I think this is yet something that might have played a part in their relationship with the school, as well.

One might ask what they mean with terms such as ‘human rights’, ‘bullying’, ‘anti-feminist’, ‘anti-child, to mention just a few. However, as my reason for writing this post at all was to say how thankful I am to Diana for what she wrote, I’m going to bring up the definition of ‘hate-speech’, which Angel Garden and Steve Paris claim I’m guilty of. I’m going to quote Diana in full (I have edited the links).

This (published by Steve and Angel):

[Angel's and Steve's website]

… is ludicrous. Almost beyond belief. I don’t actually recommend reading it, as it’s entirely pointless and content-free. I am just posting the link because I would like to respond to this:

“Hey why doesn’t somebody have a look at Alicia Hamberg’s hate-speech and actually speak up in defence of it?  Who’s got the balls for that?”

Me, that’s who. I urge others to read what Alicia wrote, too. This is what they are going around the internet claiming is “hate speech”:

[blog comment]

It is an eloquent piece of writing. I applaud Alicia for “writing so that every word can be used against her.” Steinermentary is right up there with Sune Nordwall in mindless incomprehension of someone who can write like Alicia can write. If Alicia writes two sentences, people like this misunderstand both of them, and fly into a rage.

I formally request that the brainiacs at Steinermentary quote me quoting Alicia now, and defending Alicia, all over the net … we’ve gotta spread this “hate speech” around a bit, it’s too good to keep to ourselves.

As Pete points out, this calls Angel’s definition of the word ‘bullying’ into question. (And other words she uses, one might add.) On their twitter-accounts as well as on their websites, Angel and Steve have amply showed that their definition of ‘bullying’ is equally wobbly. For example, they appear to believe that not giving them attention is tantamount to bullying and mobbing. The web page Diana links to is by no means the only one of its kind. There are numerous similar ones (on several websites), where, in a similar manner, the couple goes after a number of people who have supposedly wronged them. And as they seem to do this so easily, it casts further doubt on their version of what has happened between them and the school.

From a perspective of waldorf education and anthroposophy, this is all utterly uninteresting. In my eyes, this case appears to be more about attention, distortion and personal vendettas towards anyone who happens to get in the way or does not heed the couple’s wishes, expectations and demands. Perhaps there are people who can put up with that; I’m not one of them. Which is why I’m going to continue to refuse to recant my support for the Titirangi school. Whatever actually happened initially, I suspect they have been punished enough by now and regret ever enrolling this family. Making a charge of ‘human rights abuse’ appears to me a ridiculous move that makes a mockery of human rights and real abuses.

 

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230 Comments

  1. Diana · ·

    “Making a charge of ‘human rights abuse’ appears to me a ridiculous move that makes a mockery of human rights and real abuses.”

    Absolutely right. It makes me very angry that people would abuse a system intended to address ACTUAL human rights abuses in this fashion.

  2. Just completely off topic, really, but on topic more generally re making a mockery of human rights: a newspaper article I read today reminded me of the UN’s Human Rights Council.

  3. Diana · ·

    It ought not to be easy to use a human rights tribunal to bring a vendetta. I’m sure the courts have thought of that and instituted safeguards. Possibly there are sanctions or penalties for bringing a case that is later dismissed as frivolous.

  4. Well, speaking only from my own experience on the list… practically every time Angel quoted me – she MISquoted me. Not only that, she misquoted herself to make herself look better – even when her testimony was available for everyone to check. When she isn’t misquoting people, she’s mischaracterizing them with emotionally charged language like “hate speech” – it reminds me of Sune’s “hate group” talk. It sounds like a very basic misunderstanding of what the term means but I suspect there’s more to it. But this, too, is common for Angel, apparently. When she claimed she was “in shock” and I questioned it, she accused me of not understanding what it meant. She had to eat her words and admit that SHE was the one who didn’t know what it meant… (didn’t stop her from accusing me though). It appears to me that Angel and Steve may be projecting bullying onto the school. They seem to be VERY prone to bullying people while claiming to be victims themselves.

  5. Very nicely put, Alicia. Having seen the behaviour of these people *before* I knew the background story, it is pretty obvious to me who the real bullies are and I take the story of what their kids supposedly went through with a large pinch of salt.

  6. Diana · ·

    “practically every time Angel quoted me – she MISquoted me.”

    I noticed that too. Her replies were also often illogical. Not to mention, her claims are often not on point, on the level of basic reality. Video is not a “very new technology.” It is not likely that a parent is “in shock for 14 hours” after seeing their child bullied. It is certainly very upsetting – I still recall vividly the one time I saw another child try to harm my child, in third grade – but I would not have been trying to tell you I was in shock 14 hours later, assuming the child was not hurt. Exaggerating does not help a case like this, it undermines it. So does attempting to get pity for yourself, rather than your child, which is mostly what they do.

  7. Andy Lewis · ·

    Hi Alicia

    Just to add my support. I had a very weird email exchange with this couple after they posted a comment on my blog that got held up in moderation for a few hours.A rage ensued, emails sent, that somehow suggested I had some obligation to them to post whatever they wished on my site. After trying to communicate with them rationally, the rage got worse, so I told them I would not be corresponding with them anymore. And I have now filtered them out of my life.

    Best ignored.

  8. Hi Andy, the link above (to “Angel and Steve’s web site”, is their summary of their perceptions of that interaction with you. It isn’t worth reading the whole thing, but a paragraph or two will explain to anyone with questions what it will be like to try to work with these two. (From friendly to the furies of hell in a millisecond, if frustrated in any way.)

  9. Thank you all!

    I totally recognize practically everything you mention.

    One thing that has kept me from going nuts over this (especially when it was most intense), was being convinced that most people reading their stuff would see it for what it is.

    Re the ‘hate’ question, I guess Sune’s frequent and irrelevant use of that word made me realize it’s a word some people are prone to ‘misunderstand’… Both he and these two seem to misunderstand it spectacularly.

    I, too, intend to filter them out of my life.

    I’ve felt slightly bad that initially I didn’t see the problem and actually helped spread a couple of their posts — about their situation with the school and that they were making a film –, both here, on the critics list and on twitter. It’s long ago now, and it didn’t mean I committed to anything, obviously. I’m apparently not clairvoyant enough (yet) to spot issues that perhaps should have been crystal clear (for anyone reading the akashic records). I wasn’t skeptic enough and knew too little.

  10. Believe it or not, it got worse after that:

    http://www.amazonnewsmedia.com/ANM/ANM/Entries/2012/3/24_Forever_in_Moderation_-_purgatory_for_skeptics.html

    It’s a bottomless pit of the crazy.

  11. “I, too, intend to filter them out of my life.”

    Let’s hope there’s a spam filter big enough to filter out these two. Obviously Andy had to go to some lengths to protect his blog. Even I had not understood the full extent of this until I watched that most recent video, which purports to be on “the ethics of citizen journalism.” They are delusional.

  12. Let’s say their ‘evidence’, in form of videos and so forth, is ‘delusional’. Or we’ll be accused of ‘bullying’ them again. Oh, wait, we will be anyway.

    Yes, that video is… special. To tell you the truth, I expected the worst, so watching it was sort of an anti-climax. Comical, in its own way. I realized that nobody I respect for their thinking abilities could possibly watch that video and continue to take any off that stuff seriously (if they ever had).

    I need a cosmic spam filter.

  13. The video is Angel firing one over the bow… lest bloggers in the future be tempted to preserve the integrity of their blogs. It’s basically – Let me say terrible things about Alicia on your blog, or I’ll trash you on my videos. THIS comes as if it’s a call for “journalistic integrity”. Freedom of speech doesn’t mean you get to yell whenever you want. People do not have to grant people the right to be uncivil. I appreciate Andy’s efforts in this matter… any reasonable person would have done the same thing.

  14. Absolutely. I don’t know why anyone who wants to run a good blog that people want to read would put up with that. Andy certainly has a blog worth protecting the integrity of. It was sad to see what they chose to do because of that.

    I allowed them to post many comments in that LSN thread before I banned them; they ranted about their project and their methods, were demanding, called people some interesting things… I could have stopped it much earlier. But I allowed quite a lot from everyone (and a lot more than they allow on their websites) — before I had to stop it, because what they wanted to do, there was no way in this world I could allow, and it wasn’t even remotely relevant. I don’t want to deal with or give space to their personal junk. Apparently they expect people to want that. Or else… That’s the thing for me, really — if I don’t want to listen to someone, it’s my privilege not to. To badger me (or others) just won’t do it; quite the contrary.

  15. Hi Alicia,
    As you know, I have had the dubious pleasure of being asked their peculiar questions, including ‘would I do the video thing?’ Once it became clear that they were just too full of mistakes I took the step back and informed them to “stop now.” To their credit, they stopped. I asked my wife who was taught by the teacher [I use the term loosely] who did the video on their blog and she knew him well. [...]* She actually shivered when she told me about him. All is not clear. Firstly, I think you know you have my support and as we discussed, ignoring them seems to be more effective. Then there is the fact that they are abusive towards you because you won’t play ball. Not worth the effort really. You keep writing whatever you wish to write about. I enjoy Mr Dog, country and by the sea shots with beautiful purple flowers, I really enjoy your perspective on life. I’ll even get involved with the steiner thing as they seriously hurt my family. You keep it going, it’s all good and humorous and distinctly you.
    Arohanui,
    Shane

    *comment edited /-a

  16. Therein lies the problem. These people have made such a tempest in a teapot about the bullying at the school, that ACTUAL BULLYING may continue – because people will assume this is all made up. Once again, it seems, Angel is getting exactly the opposite reaction that she expects. She’s not only shooting herself in the foot, now… she’s shooting the bullied children too!

  17. Shane — I already thanked you on twitter, but I’ll say a million thanks again for your kind words. I know you’re right about ignoring them, and on the emotional level I certainly do that now, it’s all too bonkers to take seriously, and none of it has really got to do with me, with other critics/skeptics or even with the school where it ‘started’. Or with topics that are worth discussing because they mean something. Yet, I felt I need to take some kind of stand, as I want to distance myself from it all. Of course, I did it already first on critics some week ago. Thank you very much; it means a lot.

    Pete — unfortunately, you’re right, I fear.

  18. Gör att tre e-postmeddelanden nu.

  19. Another despicable habit is to RT other people’s tweets on twitter but changing some of the content, for example replacing a link with another link, to make it appear as though the other person is spreading and supporting views or links that s/he never posted. Perhaps some folks should read the twitter rules.

  20. Shane — det är oacceptabelt. Du har inte gjort någonting som de har rätt att bråka om.

  21. Han / hon är upprörd över att jag stöder din hållning.

  22. Shane — ja, det verkar som om de är upprörda över en hel del just nu.

  23. Sad for them I think….

  24. Definitely. I’m not sure there’s much hope they’ll ever hold up a mirror to their own behaviour.

  25. We must all look to ourselves first.

  26. Surely.

    I probably did things wrong, and still do. But, sadly, having gone back and looked at some of what’s happened, and what I’ve written myself, the most important lesson I’ve learnt is to detach myself from what other people do. And everytime somebody new contacts me, I feel like I’d better keep away.

  27. Nej du bör hålla inblandad. Godnatt / morgon.

  28. Godnatt, Shane!

  29. Shane — I’m so sorry I had to remove one sentence from your comment. I didn’t realize that the teacher was identifiable and that they have just one teacher speaking out in favour of their ‘case’, if that is what he’s doing. The teacher is pretty difficult to find, he’s on some of their youtube accounts or websites, and I don’t think anybody has any idea where to find him. But still, since he is, in theory, identifiable, I had to remove that sentence. Maybe I’m overly sensitive right now, but there is reason…

  30. Of course, this is quite interesting. The teacher is someone else who claims to have been treated unfairly by a steiner school — being tossed out, I guess (I don’t know where the film is). Once more, one has to doubt if it was the school’s fault, or maybe if they had good reason. One more point on which we have to distrust the story told. And then, to that, add the re-enacted interviews. A further point, to move into more neutral territory, is how the Sawfoot case is reported so far. There’s obviously more than meets the eye to that one as well.

  31. Georgie · ·

    (Comment removed at the author’s request. /alicia)

  32. ‘The police officer that helped me said he was going to start up a post Steve and Angel recovery group!’

    Thanks for the laughter! I think he was onto something, though. This couple systematically runs into trouble with other people as a consequence of extraordinarily demanding behaviour and general unpleasantness.

    I feel for you — what you describe sounds very familiar, and I feel, again, how lucky I am that I haven’t had any real-life contact with this couple. Being in a small and obscure country close to the north pole is sometimes a blessing…

    Life is indeed too short for all this nonsense.

  33. After having had to look at the couple’s several twitter accounts once more, I can only conclude that their abusive behaviour won’t stop. It’s been a year soon, and it just won’t stop. I don’t know what’s so damn wrong with the minds of these two — I don’t know how they can’t see that I never had any obligations towards them or their children. I have no duty to find them or their projects believable. Also, I don’t understand why they think harassing someone for months without end will make that particular someone more positively inclined towards them. That’s simply not the case; on the contrary, it makes me more certain than ever that my previous opinions about them were correct. I also wish to say that my ignoring them or my refusing to promote their websites/videos/views or my not believing in them or caring about them — that’s not bullying. They are choices I’m entitled to make. I don’t have to hang out with or help people I don’t like. And I don’t like them. They have to live with that, which shouldn’t be difficult; we aren’t exactly neighbours or anything. I think they’re bullies and thugs and impossible to deal with. And in my view they have no complaints against waldorf education that I want to promote. They’re free to do what they like and want, but they don’t have my cooperation or my endorsement — and they have absolutely no right in the world to demand it.

    And I still completely understand why the Steiner school had to get rid of them. The children have little to do with it, but it’s not my fault — nor the Steiner school’s — that the children have to suffer because of their parents’ behaviour.

    In any case, I don’t care about their personal situation, their endless sufferings or Angel’s foot disability or whatever else they come up with to justify their own actions. I simply don’t give a damn — and I don’t want to hear about these two ever again.

    What’s more — I don’t care about the UK situation either, I have no stake in it, I have no children in the UK (or here), I don’t pay UK taxes, I don’t know who Gove is and I never voted for him (as I’m not a British citizen). I’m not even opposed to the free school system; apart from some aspects of the implementation, I think it’s basically a good idea. I’ve always voted for parties that were in favour of the free school system. It’s plainly not worth it for me to be attacked for discussing these UK and Steiner education related issues; they’re not my responsibility anyway, not by far. If anyone else wants to discuss things, please go ahead; you’re always welcome here. I’m taking a break from these particular topics. I’m much happier being an anthroposophical plant or whatever. Basically, if the UK situation really interested me, I might think it worth it. But it doesn’t. I hope it does interest good, decent, reasonable UK bloggers, Steiner critics and skeptics though. They’re the ones who will have to live with the consequences — politically, educationally, and so forth.

  34. That is really intolerable – I really understand how intolerable this is. I think you have to realize people like this WON’T stop. It’s a reality of the Internet. There are crazy people out there, and with the Internet, even if they’re in New Zealand and you’re in northern Europe they can get to you. They are destructive people. Nothing will change that. The only thing you can possibly do is ignore them. Of course that just enrages them further. But there’s no recourse. I wish there were, but there’s not. They’re mean and nasty and stupid, but that’s not illegal. Do your best to ignore them totally. Easy for me to say I guess, since they don’t target me personally. I don’t know why – I guess because I’m not on twitter. (I set up an account, but haven’t used it.) When they came on the critics list I got the feeling they knew they weren’t staying there long. It’s a much more closed sort of environment, even though it’s public. Once they were removed, there was literally nothing they could do. Scream and cry all they want, no one’s listening. Their need for people to pay attention to them is simply insatiable, and it cannot be met if no one is listening. I guess that’s why they don’t direct their fire my way very much – there was no payoff for them, they can’t get attention there.

    For you and Melanie, there is only one thing that will stop them: They will eventually get into fresh trouble somewhere else and you will be relieved of their attention then. It WILL happen – it will just take awhile. They are serial catastrophizers – this is how they live, they cannot get along with other people and other people are always letting them down and “bullying” them. Their immense inner turmoil is projected out onto the world; someone else is always to blame. Likely nothing will ever change that. But at some point, they will tire of this crisis and make a new one, and find a whole new set of people who “hate” them and “bully” them and violate their human rights etc. They require such a situation, it’s a psychological necessity to them – but no single victim or situation can meet the need indefinitely – at some point they will need new victims and you will be dropped. All you can do is ride it out.

  35. Couldn’t have put it better myself, Diana.

  36. Still, nothing published about their mediation? I wonder how that went?

  37. I suspect that when a human rights tribunal investigates a claim, the process takes months, or longer, and they are probably not allowed to speak about it in the meantime.

  38. I predict that the outcome of the human rights investigation will be positive for the Steiner school. If the tribunal does a thorough and competent investigation, they will see a pattern of behavior on the part of these parents that will make some sense of the school’s ultimate decision that the children could not continue there, however poorly handled and regrettable for the children. I’m not saying the school did nothing wrong at any point – I don’t know – but I do know that continued interactions with these people will sap your will to live, and hopefully the investigators will catch on to that and understand how decisions came to be made.

    Imagine how they will hound the tribunal itself, if they lose! I continue to hope that if their claim is rejected, there will be a penalty for filing a frivolous claim.

    These are people who if you cancel a playdate – which any sane person would do, if they heard even 5 minutes of the backstory – you’ll live to regret it. Note that the story about the woman who canceled a playdate and is now the subject of angry blogging, is from the school the kids went to AFTER the Steiner school. It will never stop.

  39. I think you may be right Diana. This is a simple case of the school’s right to expel a child when the parents are out of control. I really wish Highland Hall had been smart enough to do that in the beginning with my kids. It was the fact that they kept trying to expel me *without* expelling my kids that caused them so many problems. They should have cut my kids lose in the beginning – and cut their own losses in the process. My case should be a warning to ALL Waldorf schools… if one of the parents doesn’t want Waldorf education… LET THE KIDS GO! It won’t end well.

  40. Right. The parents and children are a package deal. If you’re determined to keep the kids at the school, you have to somehow work things out with the parents, no matter how obnoxious they are (happens in every school). If it becomes impossible to tolerate the parents’ presence at the school or the parents’ involvement in school activities, then you have to expel the children. There’s just no other choice. I suspect the NZ school tried to work out various “in between,” compromise scenarios for some time before there was simply no other choice than to remove all of them. I have no doubt this was traumatic for the children, but I also don’t fault the school for ultimately reaching such a decision, in this case. I suspect the only real mistake they made was not expelling them sooner. It may have come down to marshaling of time and resources – at a certain point, no matter how much you would like to keep the children there, the whole situation would be taking too much time and energy away from other matters at the school, which is not fair to the other children or families. No school is able to spend this amount of time – and no teacher or administrator is paid enough – to wrangle endlessly with just one disagreeable family. They probably had other families threatening to withdraw or staff threatening to quit. I know I would.

  41. Thank you all.

    ‘They will eventually get into fresh trouble somewhere else and you will be relieved of their attention then. It WILL happen – it will just take awhile.’

    I know. Look at how they’ve almost forgotten about the school, none of the rants are about the school anymore. It’s about what the nasty waldorf critics did to them, not supporting them (except people actually did, for far too long), and so forth. And anger at skeptics who won’t spread their videos regardless of their incessant spamming behaviour.

    I know they will forget and I know this is nothing to do with me.

    This is the kind of thing I’m getting today, though, and it’s absurd:

    ‘If you want to understand the claustrophobic, witch-hunting vibe in cults – look no further than hate-blogger @zzzooey’s personal attacks.’

    This, for not wanting anything to do with them. It’s true that my one-man-&-one dog cult is fiercely anti-Angel now. For good reason; she and Steve are an almost uniquely unpleasant experience.

    But none of the words they use have anything whatsoever to do with me or this blog. It’s bizarre. I’m not sure what distortion lens these two are looking at the world through.

    As for their mediation, the entire topic went dead, as far as I can tell. If I were in the position of the school, I’d make sure I had enough material to show the mediators that this is a pattern. BUT, on the other hand, the mediation process is not a court process. The school doesn’t have to be there. I’m not sure why they agreed to it, if they did, unless it’s to stop further bad publicity (which they may want regardless of who’s right). They could have simply waited for the couple to sue the school. Remember, that was what Angel and Steve promised to do — it must be years ago now — when they posted their ‘notice of intention to sue’ (free from memory, not sure that webpage is even there anymore). If they had something, and this seems to be a rather simple case, that lawsuit should presumably alread be ongoing or resolved. Why spend time in mediation — through which the school can’t be forced to anything it doesn’t agree to.

    And, yes, expelling the entire family is the natural thing to do — if you can’t cooperate with the parents, you have to find a solution. And I do think it’s quite likely that other families — perhaps several, which would be a huge loss to a private school — threatened to withdraw their children. One of the things the school agreed to was to let Angel and Steve be present, overseeing things at the school. If I were the other parents, I’d be quite alarmed by such a presence, I mean, after having observed them. This is a private school. Other parents can’t be expected to put up with any kind of nuisance. Neither can the school administration or the teachers; it costs money and time that will have to be taken from somewhere else. It’s someone else’s money. It always is, of course, but I suppose it’s more tangible in a private school than in a tax-funded one.

    But here’s the big thing Angel and Steve fail to understand, and will probably never grasp, which is unfortunate: none of this is my business! No matter what the school did or didn’t do, I don’t have to care about it. And I have the right to think and say exactly what I want about the school, its actions and anything else. If disagreement and avoidance and non-cooperation and rejection of what they’re doing amounts to a ‘witch-hunt’ on them, so be it. It’s blatantly ridiculous, however. And shows they, much like some other people we know, have little idea about witch-hunts. Or claustrophobia. Or hate-blogging. Or personal attacks.

  42. “One of the things the school agreed to was to let Angel and Steve be present, overseeing things at the school. If I were the other parents, I’d be quite alarmed by such a presence, I mean, after having observed them.”

    I bet that’s what happened. Knowing what I know about them, if I had a child in a class in which Steve or Angel were a continual presence, I would have told the school, if you allow this my child will not be attending. And if you have more than one family protesting their presence, the choice is obvious – lose this one family, who continually makes trouble, or lose many others who don’t.

  43. ‘… if you allow this my child will not be attending’

    …and I want my money back. That’s what I would say.

  44. Can you not look at their twitter feeds? I don’t see it so it doesn’t raise my blood pressure so much. I mainly read about it here.

    If I were being called a “hate blogger” I would be really pissed. There is NO WAY any sane person could follow your blog and conclude you are a “hate blogger.” I sincerely hope that someone from the tribunal whose time and money they are wasting (presumably at tax payers’ expense) will be directed to your blog, in the course of this investigation, and figure out from this that these people are destructive, as well as just not very bright (often misunderstanding what they read and getting confused trying to follow discussions).

  45. Of course, I can look at their feeds, I prefer to avoid it though… as much as it’s reasonable to ignore it, I do.

    Actually… the idea is so grotesque it kind of takes the edge of being truly pissed. It’s so crazy, so utterly unreasonable. They could as well be claiming I’m an alien from outer space. They actually do claim, in another tweet, that I’m an ‘anthroposophical plant’. I hope it’s a rose; it would be so rosicrucian. What they’re alluding to is, I suppose, that I’m in an unholy and secret alliance and loyal to anthroposophy. As far as I’m concerned, they’re welcome to believe that. Perhaps we’re all anthroposophical plants. The thought is oddly entertaining. In the circumstances.

    I hope everyone who’s involved in any way in this has had the opportunity to catch a glimpse of this thread and some of the other things that’s been going on outside of the case of them vs the school.

    [Edit, odd writing... and perhaps it's enough that they glimpse some of the crazy things. Many is... well, a lot.]

  46. I meant, not “can you not” but “can you NOT” look at her twitter feeds :)

    I still get confused looking at twitter, but it looks to me like she posts the same thing repeatedly. Isn’t that against some sort of twitter-spam rule, or is it ok to just keep sending something over and over? Doesn’t that annoy your followers, even if they’re sympathetic? (Speaking of bullying; repeating oneself endlessly can be a form of bullying other people. I mean, some things need repeating; but not 3 hours later, to the same audience. That can provoke rage.)

  47. If I am understanding correctly, she tweeted this link:

    http://anarchangels.blogspot.co.nz/2012/06/skeptical-witch-hunt.html

    … 9 hours ago, again 4 hours ago, and again 1 hour ago. Even if I agreed with all her rubbish, I’d be “un-following” her after getting the same thing three times in 9 hours.

    Do lots of people tweet like that, or isn’t that obnoxious? And no doubt if anyone tells her to knock it off, that’s “personal attack” and a violation of her human rights.

  48. Haha! The interpretation is obvious now that you highlight it…! I should have seen it, but I guess my brain got stuck in the wrong loop. Well, of course. That’s the main strategy. It’s the same junk repeated over and over anyway.

    I think it’s probably spamming when they send same @ tweets to people who don’t follow. Lots of identical tweets to lots of people (they do that occasionally, mainly from one of their accounts). Repeating the same tweet over and over is probably more like an annoyance but not against any rules, and if you don’t address someone particular, a follower can always unfollow and get rid of this annoyance.

  49. Diana — I missed your second comment. So she has another blog post. I hadn’t even seen that. I suppose it’s new.

    Well, it’s not all that uncommon to see people tweet one blog post several times; it’s not so odd, considering people may have followers all over the earth. And most people don’t look at twitter all the time… it’s hit and miss, really. Someone who is very popular and is thought of as someone writing important things might get away with more. At least with me. I’m not too bothered by it. I look at my twitter feed only occasionally, so for me it’s just great if people I really want to read repeat themselves a little ;-) (But I have unfollowed for this very reason. The rsarchive.org guy kept posting — I think it’s possible to automate this, which is even more annoying — the same links to the same book blog posts over and over again, it was so often even I noticed. I unfollowed after he started that. A pity, because I kind of liked getting tweets about links to various obscure Steiner lectures. They were also repeated, but not annoyingly often.)

    If someone was sending tweets with an @ and my name repeatedly, I’d be *very* irritated though.

  50. I think tweeted links are one of Googles search engine priorities. It’s something like, the more tweets you link to your blog, the more it rises on the Google search results. I suspect Angel knows this.

  51. That explanation makes sense. It’s probably one of the reasons.

  52. Anonymous · ·

    Hi there I am what one might call a bystander of this blog for some time and I am intrigued that there is some kind of rivalry or what some might call a ‘mini cyber war’ going on. Call it whatever you will. I am not interested in being ‘bashed’, ‘trashed’, ‘bullied’. But if that is what this blog has become. A platform for people to express what they think or presuppose about someone whom they have learnt about online considering they have never met them in person. So be it.

    To debate the merits of a Steiner school in New Zealand compared to what they should have done or what a school in Europe should have done only tells me there is a difference between the 2 cultures of the northern and the southern hemispheres. And that is something to celebrate. But essentially, what happens in all Steiner/Waldorf/Free schools or any educational institutes that secretly underpins anthroposophy as it’s mission is the same across the board but with variations of the theme.

    There is no right or wrong answers here but there is obviously a right way of doing something. You do not need to know who I am but you do need to know who you are. Fragmented, scarred people who are primarily survivors and who are human beings – teachers, parents, caregivers, ex-steiner educated children. Most of you want to be healed, looking for confirmation of your discoveries, finding connections. I would say some of the things on this blog, on the PLANS website, on the Pete Sagarin blog and many other blogs and websites that support the reality of what Steiner/Waldorf education promotes have provided insights for many people. Anthroposophy and it’s shady elements and features – that is it a very bad education/philosophy/movement or whatever is the easiest way to describe it to a layperson. But is there an easiest way? It has been difficult to explain, express and yet it seems easy to describe certain aspects of anthroposophy. All those big words, all those things about Rudolf Steiner, all those ‘abnormal’ educational approaches (‘abnormal’ is my word. They are probably normal to Waldorf teachers and dedicated and unsuspecting parents and the children I guess) and all this treatment and ‘thinking’ towards children’s learning churned up with all your own individual experiences. Great stuff!

    but

    what is interesting about this thread is that while Diana has come on and supported 2 of the critics by suggesting they ignore that ‘ghastly cat’ and to ‘ride it out’ yet she says online for all to see that she has come across the ‘cat’s’ blog. Why doesn’t she ignore those ‘ghastly people’ herself? There are other things to focus your energy on. Give it a rest. This is a waste of space on a blog that should be informing and illuminating those parents/caregivers and interested people about all sorts of things. Could someone enlightened me what this blog is about? If parents/caregivers are thinking of enrolling their child in a Steiner school what are some of the things they need to do and know. Do readers who have got out of world of anthroposophy but still live with it need to read this what’s the word ‘spat’ of a ‘witch hunt’?

    Any chance of letting it go? And just live with the ‘ghastly cat’. Cats are not bad creatures Mr Dog. They are just cats. I could sign off with a Miaow but that would make me be a bully I suppose. Hmmm.

  53. ‘Could someone enlightened me what this blog is about?’

    me and my interests.

    It’s certainly not intended as an information source or guide for parents or a help for healing, for that matter. What people use it for, information, pleasure, to get angry over — well, that’s up to them.

    You’re probably right about ignoring these people though. I wouldn’t call it rivalry — I’m certainly not a rival to them. I’m not interested in what they do, and I can’t understand why they bother with me. I apparently don’t provide them or the steiner critical world with what they think I should; I think that should be fine with everyone! I may not have met these two (believe me, I’m very relieved I haven’t), but I’ve been subjected to their behaviour for a long time now — and if I am to comment on this anywhere (which may or may not be a good idea), then it has to be on my own blog. Which is this blog. My platform. If it is one.

    Of course I can let it go in that I completely ignore them and never say a word about them. They will continue to construe this as bullying and hatred, of course. I’m not willing to let it go if that means I have to suck up to them or lick their feet to make it stop — never ever. I’ve done nothing wrong.

    Mr Dog says you’re entirely wrong about cats. Ghastly creatures!

  54. I agree we should be doing our best to ignore them but it isn’t always easy. There are some destructive people who go away if you ignore them and some who get worse if you ignore them, because it increases their rage. I can’t speak for Alicia but I’m pretty sure the point of her blog is not to inform parents of what they need to know about Waldorf. It’s HER BLOG.Let HER decide what it’s for and what she wants to discuss. I am supporting her publicly as a friend – I, too, would have a very hard time ignoring people who were publicizing on twitter that I am running a “hate blog.” As I said, I don’t believe ignoring them will work – it might actually push them farther out of control. Yes, they do thrive on attention, but they also have to be stoood up to – CLEARLY, and to know that public opinion is AGAINST THEM in their crusade against Alicia and Melanie.

    As I said, the only thing that will stop them is time. They’ll tire of it eventually and get into new hassles. In the meantime, ignoring them as much as possible is good advice but it won’t get rid of the problem, not entirely. They’re going to keep at it for awhile, I predict, at least while their mediation is ongoing. Then if their mediation fails, they’ll REALLY be angry and I predict they’ll escalate again. (So let’s hope they win.)

  55. “You do not need to know who I am but you do need to know who you are. Fragmented, scarred people who are primarily survivors and who are human beings – teachers, parents, caregivers, ex-steiner educated children.”

    This is an odd thing to say. No one asked who you are; not to speak for Alicia but she does allow anonymous posting. And I take umbrage a bit to your informing us we are “fragmented and scarred.” Probably true, but not exactly a way to make friends.

  56. The other reason I speak about it is not just to support Alicia, but because these people are VERY vocal as critics of Steiner/Waldorf. I have been involved in this for more than a decade. Critics’ tactics are very important to me and I have (elsewhere) said quite a lot on the topic. Not every tactic “contra” Steiner/anthroposophy is ethical. I don’t always agree with everything a self-described “critic of Waldorf education” or “critic of Steiner/anthroposophy” does or says and I like to make my own position clear. Alicia does not have to host my opinions on her blog, of course, but she has been very gracious to do so.

    The thread that really outlines my issues with the Steinermentary project and with Steve and Angel’s personal way of dealing with people is here:

    http://zooey.wordpress.com/2011/09/02/comments-lsn/

    To summarize, collecting video evidence about Steiner education is a great idea. Accusing people who decline to send you a video or to speak out (in the way Steve and Angel deem appropriate) as being to blame for letting children be abused, is a terrible, heavy-handed tactic. The project jumped the rails there. Threatening to conduct a “reenacted” interview (a fabrication, basically) with someone who has declined to be interviewed by you – or really, just displeased you in some way – is completely unethical. People need to be warned to AVOID THIS PROJECT!

    “Reenacted” interviews are of dubious worth in a documentary. There might be a role occasionally for such a thing, but to base a project on it, well, that shows you the project just didn’t get off the ground – and if you’ve dealt with these people personally, it isn’t hard to see why. What they have so far is a bunch of videos showing themselves putting up posters, and a video of a guy at the Steiner school who did something bad, apparently, but from the video (they just trailed around after him with a camera), you can’t really figure out what it was. Their skills are not up to the project. Even if they have the videography skills, they don’t have the people skills.

    The fact that they chose to mount an enormous vendetta just because not everyone immediately fell in love with and instantly jumped on board with their project, just goes to show that it is very wise to avoid these two and to make sure others know how they behave when things don’t go their way.

    The really silly part is, almost all of us DID support them at first, some of us (not me) quite enthusiastically! It was dealing with them *personally* that soured it. Anyone tempted to send them a video or be interviewed by them definitely needs to see this history.

  57. It’s quite odd. I didn’t know what to make of it. I’m certainly no more of a survivor than anyone else… it’s true I’ve survived to the grand old age of almost 35. But, no, I don’t consider myself a survivor of waldorf education. I went to waldorf school, it wasn’t a very good experience, it left me angry and confused. I’m still alive — but so are we all, except those of us who are here in spirit (*waves at Rudi, sitting with a drink in his hand, in the corner*). But I wasn’t rescued from the Titanic or from the basement of Joseph Fritzl or anything like that. Dear Dog. Scars, sure. But how do you measure them? How do you compare them? Many Steiner critics focus on criticizing the pedagogy and its faults and the underlying belief system — it’s not necessarily about personal scars. It’s about realizing something is wrong (or interesting) about it. I’m not saying that was me — I was angry. My anger is pretty lame these days.

    I hope they fail the mediation. That would redirect their anger towards the human rights tribunal.

  58. And their idea of a scintillating video is to take screen shots of blogs they comment on, and then screen shots a few hours later when the blog owner has taken down the comment (hoping, praying, they’ll go away). Yes, they make VIDEOS of screen shots of blog posts. This they consider a contribution to documentary making about the “ethics of citizen journalism.” Perhaps the real point, and the real reason they’re so angry, is that the original project (collecting video evidence re: Steiner education) just isn’t going to work out. So they’re reduced to threatening to make “documentaries” about all the people who refused to work with them.

  59. True. I’m plenty scarred, but it wasn’t by Waldorf, and my son barely remembers Waldorf In fact, I don’t think he would remember it at all, if I hadn’t kept the issue alive – most of what he knows/remembers about it now, is stuff I’ve repeated in the meantime – or that he overheard countless times in the years immediately following, from our circle of friends who had also removed children from the Waldorf school, and chewed over it for years afterward. He does remember that they tried to make him knit …. shudder. (He might also remember it because all the girls he ever went to school with, anywhere, have friended him on Facebook, and a few times, he’s politely asked, “Where do I know you from?” and they reply “Waldorf.” – This was preschool!)

    I certainly wasn’t personally scarred by our experiences at the Waldorf school, though my experience working in the preschool was stressful. If anything, I’m appreciative, because studying Waldorf/anthroposophy afterwards has clarified my thinking on a lot of things, as well as helped explain my own childhood to me a little better. (I was heavily influenced by Christian Science, which has certain similarities to anthroposophy.)

  60. Diana — agree with every word in your comment (we posted almost at the same time, so I didn’t see it before posting).

    ‘Alicia does not have to host my opinions on her blog, of course, but she has been very gracious to do so.’

    You always say interesting things. And you know what you’re talking about. I’m always incredibly grateful for your comments.

    I do allow almost all comments though. Angel and Steve posted quite a few — and many of them were certainly not to my liking, as is clear from the comment thread you linked to… — before it became bleeding obvious there was no other recourse but to ban them. I could not possibly do anything else and didn’t want to. I was not going to host such severe personal attacks. No way.

    As for that video (‘ethics…’), I consider it a piece of youtube comedy. I literally fell off the chair laughing when I first saw it. Didn’t even need to get drunk first ;-)

  61. I would also like to point out – then I’ll shut up – from reviewing that earlier thread, that Steve and Angel will promise, on the one hand, that they would never publish anything you’ve told them in an interview without your permission … but on the other hand they repeatedly threaten to create video “send-ups” of things and people who have displeased them – comparing this to satirizing politicans etc. And they repeatedly suggest they will eventually make a documentary about all their terrible experiences dealing with Waldorf critics.

    So they’ll always ask your permission to post video reenactments of things you have said … unless they’re mad at you, then they’ll do it without your permission and call it a “send-up.”

  62. “we posted almost at the same time, so I didn’t see it before posting). ”

    We must have, I didn’t see yours either till right after pressing “Post” :)

  63. ‘… studying Waldorf/anthroposophy afterwards has clarified my thinking on a lot of things, as well as helped explain my own childhood to me a little better.’

    Same for me.

  64. A ‘flag-up’ through ‘send-up’. Or vice versa. They have pet words.

    Of course, that video will be on youtube. I bet it will contain many screenshots.

  65. “I’m always incredibly grateful for your comments.”

    That is kind of you but please remember you have a following here of people who consider the ethereal kiosk a very important part of our lives, and basically hang on your every word, or at least Mr. Dog’s every bark :)

  66. Of course! I am not the one to complain; this is all part of the cosmic plan. Soon we will have converted the entire world to canineosophy, which is the even more important goal in the long run. Or the cult of truth, as mr Dog calls it. He was just howling about it on a popular square here in Stockholm. Very compelling. So we’re working on all fronts. Canineosophical plants are welcome to join the cause. We need someone to infiltrate the cat clubs.

  67. I wrote -”Yes, they make VIDEOS of screen shots of blog posts.”

    Actually this cracks me up. I may not know much about making videos (“disruptive technology,” as Steve and Angel call it, though since video has been around for several decades, I don’t think it’s terribly disruptive anymore), but I can tell you for sure, that making videos of things happening online is not the way of the future. Some kind of external medium may be needed for documenting happenings in cyberspace, perhaps some new technology or medium is evolving even now. But it isn’t VIDEO. Videos of changes on web pages – is there anything possibly more boring? You know, they draw squiggly lines around things to show you the changes, the way it’s done on sports broadcasts, and special “transition effects” (fade in and fade out, screen flips etc.) – the effect is a bad PowerPoint presentation. You think it has to be a joke, but it’s not.

    Oh, I can well imagine Mr. Dog howling in the popular square. Sounds worthy of a blog post, or dare I say … a video.

  68. “A platform for people to express what they think or presuppose about someone whom they have learnt about online considering they have never met them in person. So be it.”

    LOL… Imagine if people were limited to discussions about people they’ve actually met. I guess there would be no such thing as “news” or “history”… The world would be a very boring place.

  69. and “if that is what this blog has become” …

    Again, Alicia needs no defending but I would point out that in just the month of June, she has written 31 blog posts. Precisely one post is about Steve and Angel, so I don’t think that’s “what this blog has become.” In June she has written about (among other things, some in Swedish that I can’t read) Helena Blavatsky, the solstice, Steiner on elemental beings, a new Waldorf-critical book, biodynamics and anthroposophic medicine, a New York Times travel piece about Stockholm, Somerset Maugham, the transit of Venus, and insomnia. And of course … dogs.

    It is understandable she would need to vent occasionally about a couple of disturbed individuals on a crusade of calling her “anti-feminist,” “anti-child,” a “hate blogger” with “offensive content” (even “filth”) on her blog, assertions that she “attacks children” when she hasn’t written ONE WORD about anybody’s children. I too would have trouble keeping still if I were aware someone was relentlessly trashing me on twitter. And what’s it all for? Because after some initial contact, Alicia did not want to promote their video project on her blog, and asked them to go away after some unpleasant interactions.

  70. Melanie · ·

    Yes, Alicia has every right to reply to anyone she wants. So have I – but I’m happy to let their ghastly folie à deux play out to its conclusion without my help. It will end in tears, but they won’t be ours.

  71. Melanie · ·

    and – I’d read Alicia’s blog if it was entirely about fish-slapping. She can write anything she wants.

  72. Melanie · ·

    ..please don’t become a piscinosophist.

  73. The ancient wisdom of the gills. Wait, I have just the soundtrack for that. Be patient, wisdom seeking friends! I will post a youtube link when I am on a proper computer!! Melanie might know what I’m thinking of though.

  74. LOL. Well, not to be a party poop but I don’t think I would follow a blog about fish slapping. Dogly wisdom, that’s another thing …

  75. Years ago, I saw a movie about a man who was really a fish. I mean, he didn’t LOOK like a fish, but he … really was a fish. It was a bizarre, but really good movie. Funny but disturbing. I’ve tried every which way to find it again, begged google for help and asked everyone I know, to no avail. I have no idea who was in it – it was fairly obscure.

    As long as we are on the topic of fish slapping, any chance this rings a bell with anyone?

  76. Melanie · ·

    .. I will look.

    Just a thought, Diana – how stoned WERE you?

  77. Let’s focus on the fun first, combining piscinosophy with being stoned. Here’s a stoned fish.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synanceia

    Intriguing, that movie. I posted about it on twitter, who knows — maybe somebody knows about it!!

    And here’s the important piscinosophical soundtrack:

  78. Pete: ‘Imagine if people were limited to discussions about people they’ve actually met.’

    Indeed. The prospect of only talking with or about people you’ve met or events or phenomena you’ve witnessed — my Dog what a boring world. Of course, we would know nothing about the steinermentary videos either, which would be nice. But, overall, the reading, hearing and talking with people you’ve never met is very positive.

    Diana wrote: ‘in just the month of June, she has written 31 blog posts. Precisely one post is about Steve and Angel, so I don’t think that’s “what this blog has become.”’

    Not even that — this post was posted in may! I didn’t want to waste an entirely new post on this, so I resurrected the old one… Totally agree with you about what you say though.

    And I’m not sure what’s disruptive about videos with screenshots from the internet. It’s not even exciting. The video element is entirely superflous. In my opinion…

    Diana — don’t say there’s anthroposophical fish slapping? We’ve learnt about maori fish slapping from Shane. It seems like a very useful and fine old tradition!

    Here’s mr Dog singing the truth to people and dogs of Stockholm this afternoon: http://twitpic.com/a13g9t

    Unfortunately, I had no good camera with me… I’m sure there will be more opportunities. We have howling episodes almost every day…

  79. Ha, stoned fishes, are they like drunken elks?

  80. Yes! but they don’t find themselves stuck in trees. (Fish are not good climbers, not even when sober.) Entangled in seaweed, though, looking silly. Happens a lot. I’ve heard.

  81. The pic is cute, but I await the video of Mr. Dog presenting himself howlingly in the public square.

  82. You’ve seen the old howl videos, right? We must record some new ones. It’s been a while!

  83. Speaking of things I’ve written about lately — and this because I think I wrote about it in Swedish — there’s a new novel by a German author, Christian Kracht, Imperium. The book’s main character and a spiritual guru finds the meaning of everything in the coconut. It’s based on a true story. Here’s an old article from the NYT:

    http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=990CEFDF1438EF32A25756C1A9669D946497D6CF

    I finally managed to get hold of the book today and hope it will be enjoyable.

    I believe it’s being translated to other languages.

  84. A fish in a tree is really up a creek.

  85. we definitely need some research or maybe even a new blog about fish-slapping.
    look at this movie fragment by the canadian director Guy Maddin

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjG9hP21a9g

    I have a few questions maybe you Alicia could assist me to find an answer.

    what is the psychoanalytical subtext of the fish-slapping?
    Is there a feminist perspective the phallic motive of the trouts slapping against each other?
    Would it be a help to the New-Zealandian couple if they would start a fish-slapping therapy?
    (or would it be paternalistic to write that they need a therapy/ I do renember your controversy with A.L abut sanity.
    Karl Marx said once that fish(trout) was his favourite dish/ what about our friend R.S.? Did he like fish(slapping)?

    And finally I do not exclude you Mr.Dog what do you prefer Trout or Salmon?

    So many questions….

    and mr.dog i do not want to exclude you

  86. Melanie · ·

    ‘Would it be a help to the New-Zealandian couple if they would start a fish-slapping therapy?’

    http://www.facebook.com/GrouperTherapy
    also:
    http://www.facebook.com/GrouperTherapy/info

    ‘or would it be paternalistic to write that they need a therapy?’

    who cares?

  87. Melanie · ·

    As for RS – I can quite imagine it. I believe that taking a good shot with a haddock is what they do in those dull moments in the first class meetings of the school of spiritual science, to the accompaniment of Schubert:

  88. Mr Dog is not so fond of fish.

    ‘Is there a feminist perspective the phallic motive of the trouts slapping against each other?’

    Good question. I’m sure it’s anti-feminist to slap a female person with a trout, just as it is anti-feminist to disagree with or choose not to support a female person. So, please pull down someone’s cyber-pants and make sure before you trout-slap anyone over the internet.

    As for therapy, I’m sure there are people who could benefit better from therapy than from lashing out on webpage after webpage for no good reason at all. As for LA, yeah. That was another unfortunate episode, another one who couldn’t accept disagreement very well.

    I’ve found something in Steiner about fish. It’s interesting for several reasons in this particular context…

    ‘After the sun had left, the highest form of animal was a type that stood at the level of our present fish. When we say that the human feet corresponded to this fish-form, when we look at the feet in connection with fish, what does this mean? It means that the feet were the only part of man that was physically perceptible at the time when certain forms were left behind which swam about like fish in the water-earth.’
    http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/EgyptMyth/19080910p01.html

    Melanie — I can now envision them hadock-slapping each other through the mantras… even the blue cards begin to smell… fishy.

  89. Melanie · ·

    It could be that Oxyrhynchus, the Egyptian Fish God, is also the Eater of Osiris’ Phallus. Thus we may understand the phallic significance of the above fish-slapping, and eventually come to terms with our own destiny.

    http://www.barakatgalleryuae.com/images/OxyrhynchusFishGod.jpg

  90. this is so full of meaning, it will take me days to fully interpret the significance of it.

  91. (Glub, glub) I am speechless.

  92. I do renember countless ‘profesionel ‘Eurythmie performances of the fairy tale “Der Fischer und seine Frau. Don’t why they would always choose this tale, yet maybe I begin to understand. The fish was the most intelligent creature in the play anyway. There was no fish-slapping as far as i renember though
    This morning while I was showering I finally discovered that the fish/feet comparison is not that far off. My feet seem to be rather dull though, but this might be human arrogance, maybe the human-aniomal studies can enlighten us about the intelligence of fish. I read an article/ or maybe I just watched a video the other day, where they claimed that fish are capable of playing simple video games ( like mario kart or what)

    Another story I want to share is that a friend of mine, sometimes wears a ‘slippery fish’ necklace, which looks quite similar to the pic Melanie posted, when he goes out to the nightclubs/ he’s always the center of attention and everybody wants to make out with him. Could be the hidden magic of the fish/but he’s damn cute anyhow so I am not too sure about this interpretation.

    (glub, glub) I am speechless too

  93. Melanie · ·

    ‘fish are capable of playing simple video games’ – I thought they had very short memories. Maybe they can’t remember how bad the game was last time.

    The only way to find out, Ben, is to borrow the necklace. Come back and tell us what happens (not in too much detail).

  94. That is actually very interesting about the seductiveness of the fish … that was sort of the theme of the man-who-was-a-fish movie I’m trying to track down. The plot involved a very attractive man who seduced multiple women, some of whom began to suspect they were actually dating a fish, but nobody believed them. Understandably. Until the end where … we’ll I’ve already posted a plot spoiler, I’m afraid …

    “I read an article/ or maybe I just watched a video the other day, where they claimed that fish are capable of playing simple video games”

    Could be you are watching too much youtube …

  95. Melanie · ·

  96. ThetisMercurio · ·

    what’s this thread about?

  97. Melanie · ·

    sorry, that was me. I was on google chrome and it remembers my avatar name.

  98. And all this time: HER sufferings. Her foot disability. Her feelings. Her children being hurt by someone disagreeing w their mother. From the other side of the earth. Her damn personal issues none of which has anything to do with me. Her foot and her limping which makes any disagreement with her anti-disability. Really?! These things have nothing to do with the only topic we even remotely have in common: steiner ed. Her feelings about her life are none of my business. If she were my friend, if I liked her, if I believed in her — sure I’d care about her and her life. Now, I don’t.

    It’s as if we don’t all have our personal hurts and problems to deal with. During this year she’s been ranting at me more or less constantly, I’ve had a relative die, family member getting serious diagnosis, have had failing eyes and surgery myself, have had more or less constant and troubling aches that I interpret as cancer of course and because I’ve done nothing I’m convinced it’s spread so I’d better not find out… It’s my loony mind but the worry is quite debilitating at times and makes me think: death, death; it’s like a mantra.

    And she thinks we should all stop our lives and abandon our own worries to make sure we don’t offend someone with a fucking limp on one foot?!? She thinks we should care about her because *her* life is so full of sorrows. We should not criticize her because there are all these pity factors that she thinks ought to render her immune. I tell you what: we ALL have our pity factors. But at least I don’t demand of her or anyone else that they tiptoe around me because of personal things going on in my life. I kind of expect someone I have nothing in common with and who lives on the other side of the planet not to care all that much about my eyes (bad eyes, isn’t that ‘disability’ too?). Or any other worries I have or bad experiences. And really — Angel and Steve were totally uninterested in me as long as I didn’t disagree. They had no interest in what I was writing and what was going on in my life. Nothing to be surprised about.

    I guess it’s offensive that I care about Melanie, Diana, mr Dog (well, I could name a lot of people and dogs here). I guess it’s bullying. But then, anything is. The concept is devoid of any meaning.

    I notice she’s continuing her pity party. I notice the universe is not weeping. Perhaps a blog post about an uncaring cosmos would be appropriate. Because that’s where we find ourselves in the end. Alone and mortal.

  99. I had to get that complaint out of my system. I remember Diana’s reply to Angel on critics when she ranted about how nobody asked about her feelings. That was great.

    What this thread is about? I don’t know! I think we need champagne. Am arranging things in the kiosk, if someone will please shake Rudi awake!

    I had a fish skeleton necklace one. A propos nothing.

  100. Melanie · ·

    I have it on ice.

  101. Oh lovely, exactly what I need!! Mr Dog has just been proselytizing in another square. Lots of tourists. Good strategy for international successes for canineosophy.

    Let’s face it, fish can’t howl. Bad for piscinosophy.

  102. “I guess it’s offensive that I care about Melanie, Diana, mr Dog (well, I could name a lot of people and dogs here).”

    Are you saying you do not care about my cats!!!!

  103. Well, I have to be diplomatic about it, so I tried to avoid mentioning cats. After all, I must share the apartment and my life and refrigerator with mr Dog… He tells me he’s a wolf and can kill and eat me. Happened recently in a zoo. He’s followed the events carefully.

  104. Here’s a local dog-related story of interest, from my city:

    http://www.myfoxphilly.com/story/18876159/wolf

    (I don’t know if you know what Fox News is, but I apologize for linking from Fox; my mother, a devotee of Fox News, saw it first.)

    In my opinion these creatures may simply be … dogs. We have a rather unsophisticated citizenry. But they sure are beautiful.

    Unfortunately, on this page you can also learn more about life in our sordid city:

    12 Shot, 4 Dead, On First Summer Weekend In Philly.
    (Yes, you read those numbers right …)

    However, I also note from the same page that a woman was killed in the wolf enclosure at a Swedish zoo!

  105. Oh, funny, I actually did not notice you had mentioned the woman killed by a wolf!! Your comment about Mr. Dog claiming to be a wolf reminded me of the wolf-dog said to be roaming here.

  106. Melanie · ·

    splendid Mr Dog!

    Alicia, Diana – that silly woman is the agent of her own destruction. Ignore her.

  107. It looks very much like a dog (husky or sled/polar dog of some kind) and its behaviour… keeping away (but I’ve read that domestic dogs on the run become shy very quickly) but doesn’t seem stressed out by people or extremely shy or anything. Very beautiful. Probably a good idea to catch it anyway, but it wouldn’t surprise me if genetic testing came back — dog! At least it’s not carrying a gun…

    And, yes, that’s the story. Mr Dog — not surprisingly — is paying attention. ‘You do remember’, he asks, ‘that I’m a wolf? When you fall asleep…’ and then he licks his nose. On the other hand, he admits there is better meat in the freezer. So I’m not sure about the conclusions. I think he just wants to make me give him more treats. All the howling is clearly intended to remind me of the basic facts of living with a wolf. We talk about these things a lot of course. ‘If you talk like that, maybe you can’t be in the bed and have your own pillow’, I tell him. The looks I get then… They could kill.

  108. You’re right, Melanie. Her behaviour won’t change, and no matter what I do, I ‘bully’ her. One can say these things, such as the things I’ve said, because there’s a point to not to just standing there and take it but to preserve one’s boundaries, at least for oneself and regardless of her. Of course it won’t affect anything for real on the other end of things, because over there it’s all about her needs and not about anyone else.

  109. Melanie · ·

    Yes, it’s good you made your case. Silence is bullying, standing up to her is bullying. You have a right to defend yourself.

  110. Thanks. At least, in the absence of good options, I hope it’s one of the better. Ín retrospect, the only good option would have been ignoring them from the very beginning. Alas, those things are not so easy to know and predict, unless you’re completely clairvoyant, which apparently I wasn’t. Neither were the esotericists in Titirangi.

  111. Well, whatever you do… DON’T take this stuff off your blog. It’s a very clear record of what took place here and the defamation she spreading all over the internet (You’re an attorney, right?). Her credibility is also apparently important to her so, if she wants to keep it, she’ll stop pretending there’s hate speech here. All anyone has to do to figure out she’s being dishonest is to follow her links and read your blog. I can imagine that doesn’t make her look too good in her own case.

  112. Yes, and if anything is taken down, it appears to confirm her paranoid fantasies. People will imagine far worse than anyting that’s here. Time to get some screen shots here, I think. I will get shots of all posts and threads that reference them, and of the so called hate speech regarding her children, offensive content, etc. Ill make Word copies, too.

    Its not hard to figure out why she wants posts here removed!

  113. As great as my magic powers are — black magic powers, I’m sure — I’m not a wizard who can conjure up things that don’t exist in order to make them disappear at Angel’s wish.

    There is no hate-speech here, thus there’s no hate-speech to remove. It’s really that simple.

    I have copies of the blog (still good to have screenshost of the relevant parts, of course, so thanks!), but I trust that were wordpress to look at the alleged hate-speech, it would amount to nothing; they’d see the frivolousness of any such complaints.

    (Yes, my uni degree is in law. But anyway, as anyone can see, lawyer or not, nothing here meets even a broader, popular definition of hate-speech.)

  114. I believe Angel Garden and Seve Paris want posts here removed because they make them (not Alicia) look not credible. They are currently pursuing a claim with a human rights tribunal and they probably got worried that investigators might look around at their activities online, because they show clearly that where Steve and Angel charge things like “hate speech” and “offensive content” (even “filth,” implying something possibly pornographic), there is none.

    Angel Garden and Steve Paris claim that Alicia has attacked their children or said hateful things about their children. No such content is to be found on this blog, by Alicia or any commenter. What has been stated is that after interacting with this couple, one comes to understand why the school probably ultimately concluded they had no choice but to expell the children – very simple, the school, and the school community, could no longer tolerate the behavior of the parents, thus the children, unfortunately, had to leave. There are descriptions even on Angel’s own blog of community meetings held at the school for parents to vent about their difficulties in dealing with Steve and Angel, and strategize how to handle the situation. It is speculation, of course, but it isn’t hard to imagine that parents, and maybe staff, were threatening to leave the school if the school continued to tolerate the disruptions they were creating.

    This is NOT a statement against Steve Paris’s and Angel Garden’s children. None of us have met these children and we have nothing at all against their children or anyone else’s. Their children have obviously had some very tough times, and that’s very sad. These statements are speculation about how the school may have reached the decision it did. We can recognize that the experience may have been painful and probably harmful to the children; but agreeing that a school was put in the position of having to expel certain children is not “hate speech” against those children. It says nothing at all about those children. Quite clearly, none of this is the children’s fault.

    Children, regrettably, are at the mercy of parents and teachers. The children in this situation are victims of the entire drama being waged by the adults (their parents’ fight against this school, and possibly – though I don’t know; neither side’s story is particularly credible – events at the school that preceded this battle). The children are caught in the middle and unable to advocate for themselves.

    Statements such as this are what anyone “investigating” this blog would find on this topic. It’s that simple. For this to actually be investigated would reveal Steve Paris and Angel Garden’s claims against Alicia as completely frivolous – and the fact that they make false, even ludicrous, accusations against a blogger who is basically merely a bystander in the whole drama, casts doubt on the claims they’re making against the Titirangi School.

    I think this is why they would like WordPress to remove content from Alicia’s blog.

  115. ‘(even “filth,” implying something possibly pornographic), there is none.’

    We can have that though. Perhaps something like this?
    http://annakrentz.blogspot.se/2012/03/titillating-twenties.html

    I like this one in particular: http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/cph.3b42194/

    Or perhaps something like this:
    http://images.google.com/hosted/life/6ad7136fa83a268d.html

    Not sure it’s filthy though. But a bit pornographic.

    Great comment, by the way. And I am indeed a complete bystander — if they hadn’t acted the way they did and still do, I probably would never have suspected or much less concluded that perhaps the school had little choice. I was never even interested enough or suspicious enough to read the correspondence between them and the school until it was too late. I regret that.

    The mediation is, of course, only mediation and voluntary, and I suspect nothing is brought into that process that the parties to it don’t bring into it themselves (that’s not to say someone might not choose to google anyway…). That said, were I the school, I would probably try to point to the greater picture — which includes the pattern of behaviour.

    ‘agreeing that a school was put in the position of having to expel certain children is not “hate speech” against those children.’

    Exactly. It is what it is — expressing the opinion that the school had a reason to do it, and also a right and perhaps a duty (towards other families and the teachers). It has nothing to do with any ‘hate’ against the children. If anything, I’m indifferent to the children. And the comment, most importantly, was not about the children. In any way.

  116. You know, I’ve spent half an hour looking in vain for a lovely filthy painting of the classic sort. One I saw at an auction a while ago. Cant’t find it, and am puzzled. I’m compelled to introduce more filth to this blog, however, and thought this combination of nude with kitten had a potential to enrage almost everyone:

    http://media.auktionsverket.se/E112/stor/2174.jpg?d=20120427092800

    Please tell me if I’m succeeding. Mr Dog is already growling…

  117. Melanie · ·

    I’ll raise you that kitten and languidly drape a leopard over the blog:

    http://www.worldart.com.au/images/ancient-greek-painting1.jpg

    Having palpitations at this point. *swoons*

  118. Oh dear! That’s a HIGHLY morally corrupting image!! You should hear mr Dog now…

    In fact, the old painting I was searching for was a wonderful harem interior. It’s so frustrating I can’t find it in the online catalogues.

  119. Did find some sea nymphs though.
    https://d2cvoyx1likrq.cloudfront.net/0721/8370/IT266407_fullsize.jpg

    Here’s a lovely painting by swedish painter Ivar Arosenius (love the frame):
    https://d2mpxrrcad19ou.cloudfront.net/item_images/296121/8212265_fullsize.jpg
    Called ‘Festivities’!

    And… last BUT NOT LEAST (ha!), and because I sort of like to — occasionally — enhance your knowledge about Sweden, dear all, here are some very expensive swedish nudes:

    https://d2mpxrrcad19ou.cloudfront.net/item_images/217161/5225991_fullsize.jpg
    (The painting is called Summer: http://www.bukowskis.com/auctions/562/55-anders-zorn-sommar)

    The painter is Anders Zorn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Zorn), the location is Dalarö in the Stockholm archipelago. It’s wonderful — the water, the rocks, the pine trees.

    (Here’s a tiny one from Sandhamn, where, incidentally, Melanie washed ashore! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ZORN_p%C3%A5_sandhamn.jpg — Zorn used to spend some time there. Along with Strindberg and other luminaries.)

    (Hey — this blog may become filthier than Frank Thomas Smith’s Southern Cross Review!)

  120. Melanie · ·

    it’s so filthy! Like a cesspit. Lovely paintings, I can even recognise the island. But as for your naughty sea-nymphs.. I hope no one from WordPress sees those winged beauties!

  121. Very naughty, indeed. They’d close the blog due to inexcusable filth (and too generous an intake of champagne)!

    There’s a lack of nude males, though. I have to take care of this another day, and I’m sure it will be just as nice but more difficult (less of them around). Unfortunately, there are no iniquitous — hey! I learnt a new word too! what a day! — pictures of Rudi.

  122. Melanie · ·

    there’s a reason why there’s a lack of male nudes

    http://www.frieze.com/uploads/images/middle/eddiepeaketouch.jpg

  123. Ouch. It so easily turns comical in a bad way.

  124. Melanie · ·

    it’s the socks!

  125. The socks don’t help. Neither does the environment. It’s not the least bit decadent or beautiful!

  126. This is so much better than all the dreadfulness. Let’s have some ice-cream too!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_cream_parlor

  127. Melanie · ·

    We have an ice-cream maker in the ethereal kiosk. Every so often one of the more curious gnomes falls in head first and undergoes a chilly incarnation.

  128. Small pieces of wool hat and gnome beard appear in the ice-cream from time to time as evidence of gnome curiousity. And also of their inability to resist sweet foods even at peril.

  129. Melanie · ·

    bless them.

  130. Georgie · ·

    (Comment removed at the author’s request. /alicia)

  131. Georgie · ·

    (Comment removed at the author’s request. /alicia)

  132. ‘They have some funny ideas.’

    Now that’s the understatement of the decade!

    Thanks for commenting and the support.

    I have in fact completely ignored them lately, and am blissfully unaware of what they’re up to now. It’s a purely egoistical decision; I didn’t want to waste more of my time. What they do harms waldorf steiner criticism, which is a pity, and it also harms individuals, but what can you do… The latter makes me sad to know, the former, well, it’s not my business anymore if it ever were.

  133. Melanie · ·

    Georgie, you said – ‘its not a school issue.’ – of course it wasn’t. What nonsense. All the best to you.

  134. As long as this thread has been revived, I’ll post an update about the “wolf dog” in Philly … it was eventually captured, tested and shown to be half wolf, half Alaskan malamute.

    Some guy showed up claiming it was his, a present he had given his fiancee, claiming it had “gotten away” from them in the park. Maybe so, but clearly he wasn’t up to the responsibilities of caring for such a creature, not to mention the fact that keeping them as pets is illegal here. Lots of people think it’s going to be really cool to keep a half-wild animal as a pet, and have no idea what they’re getting into.

    Anyway, the animal was taken to a wolf sanctuary in Pennsylvania, where hopefully it will live out its days unharassed, in a setting much more suited to it than Pennypack Park in Philadelphia. A happy ending.

    Here’s a beautiful picture of it:
    http://www.bsmphilly.com/northeast-times/5534-hybrid-captured-with-dog-gone-good-bait.html

    and another, more clearly showing its wolfishness:
    http://www.wazaap.com/2012/06/26/wolf-dog-living-philadelphia-park/

  135. And another story hopefully appropriate for the ethereal kiosk: My husband was watering some hanging flower baskets on our front porch and found a robin’s nest complete with baby robins in one of them. It was lucky he hadn’t drowned them … the (probable) mother was sitting a few years away watching us so we put it back quickly and have decided to let those flowers die, so as not to disturb the bird family … we think it’s really cool but the cats seem not to agree – or rather they think it’s cool but would make a very tasty snack.

  136. that’s supposed to say the mother was sitting a few “yards” away …

  137. The robin story is so appropriate! Adorable, actually. Some tiny birds usually nest on the roof of our countryhouse. They’re terribly bothered about human presence first (they usually move in while humans are away) but gradually seem to get used to it.

    Getting used to cats however… That’s probably not at all desirable from a survival viewpoint.

    Thanks for the wolf update. People really are crazy — and the wrong people always seem hellbent on getting the wrong kind of dog.

    As if there isn’t wolf enough in an ordinary dog (say a yorkie… of course, yorkies are extraordinary… well, never mind, too complicated to consult mr D about these issues…).

    I think dog-wolf hybrids are illegal here too, perhaps there must be a certain number of generations before they’re ok. Breeds like the Saarloos wolfhound are ok these days, but they don’t breed more wolf into them.

    Mr D is quite a ferocious canine — although in a kind manner, unless you are a mitten, for example, as Melanie can testify (on behalf of her mitten) — so I’m quote satisfied, wolf-wise.

    Also, wolves are beautiful animals who belong in nature, roaming free. Not on leash, not with humans.

  138. Well, OK, in a somewhat related story, one of the three bald eaglets some of us had been watching this spring was found dead – apparently electrocuted on a telephone pole.

  139. What a fate! Tragic. Poor little bird.

    These ahrimanic inventions of materialistic humans!!! *goes away ranting*

  140. Oh, yes, Pete, I had a pretty good crying jag over the poor eaglet already. Here is its picture – a beautiful bird:

    http://thegazette.com/2012/07/03/decorah-eaglet-born-in-2012-found-electrocuted/

  141. Melanie · ·

    very sad.

    We have a cat living in our shed, it isn’t ours. It’s very loud, appears without warning in the house staring at our little mittens Hermes and Iris, who are too polite to complain, and is too strong and wild to catch. Cats’ protection league have the odd idea that they are supposed to be protecting the cat – it’s us needs protection!

  142. Tried attacking it with a water hose? Probably must be very persistant for a few days or even more though. I’m sure the method doesn’t appeal to the cat protection league but I wouldn’t want someone else’s cat living (and peeing) in my shed…!

  143. Melanie · ·

    why is it when you attack an animal with a hose it always escapes into your house?

  144. oh dear Dog!! Shutting the doors first might be an idea.

  145. Melanie · ·

    .. through a window..

  146. did the mrs Dogs take ‘care’ of the intruder?

  147. Melanie · ·

    it all happened so quickly.

  148. “Tried attacking it with a water hose?”

    What?????? Holy moly. Attack with a hose? How about setting out food? Make FRIENDS with this animal. This is how we got our cat Billy – well, we never “got” him, really he got us – he took up residence in our greenhouse, where he lived happily for 4 years. (Then disappeared mysteriously, leaving us grief stricken.) He was a magnificent cat.

    It’s true that the indoor cats will not be happy about this arrangement, but presumably they live fairly comfortable lives and can cope.

    Wait, just reading back I see that it is getting into your house … that’s not good. Then again if he’s just staring at the other cats when he gets in – they’re not fighting? – then is it a problem?

  149. *Hahahahaha* — hear the evil laugh of mr Dog.

    Once, when I was in my teens, my mother and little brother came in through the main enterence of our house. Suddenly, I hear this SCREAM! You thought something horrific had occurred.

    But no.

    A cat had sneaked in when my mother opened the door. And it had run inside, very rapdidly. It now sat under our dining table. It didn’t do anything, it just sat there.

    My mother had no idea how to get rid of it. Somehow just lifting it up and removing it didn’t occur to her. It took two seconds. But this was obviously a house-cat, not problematic at all. I lifted it up and got it outdoors and it trotted away.

    On other occasions we did use my brother’s water guns on cats though. They wanted to use our porch as a toilet while we wanted to use it for dining on fine summer days. Quite a conflict there.

    (I’m afraid my mother didn’t want a cat. She’s a bit like mr Dog. Anyway, the cats we scared away were other people’s cats, not abandoned cats.)

  150. Melanie · ·

    I’m sorry Diana, if there were any way I could transport Shed Cat to your greenhouse I would do so in an instant. Unfortunately he yowls outside our bedroom window every night, waking the dogs, who bark, waking the neighbour, who isn’t pleased, before mooching over to Tigger’s house and occasionally biting him. Tigger is a huge ginger Tom who sulks when things go wrong, and he is affronted. Shed Cat also pees in our hall. So you can see it can’t go on.

  151. This is really funny. I tend to forget that there truly are people who don’t like cats … but listen, I really am a cat expert, and I can tell you that if you want peace with this animal, you’re going about it exactly backwards. If you hosed him and he jumped through a window INTO the house, that should tell you something – he didn’t run AWAY when hosed – and he’s peeing in your front hall, believe me, what you have to do is reverse course. That is classic cat psychology. It’s absolutely true that a cat can make your life hell if he doesn’t get what he wants … they can be quite malevolent.

    But the answer is to give him what he wants, and all he wants is your affection. Honest – it really will work to befriend him instead. It really will. He will NOT pee in your house if he is happy and loved, nor yowl outside the window. (Well – at least not as often.) I have gotten along with every single cat I have ever met in the world, and the secret is simply that they believe they are to be venerated because they ARE to be venerated, and all you have to do to get along beautifully with a cat is agree to venerate him or her. Then – honestly – the cat will totally stop all the destructive and disruptive behavior.

    I know – I am a fanatic. But it’s all true. I always hear this stuff – “The cat is impossible, so I locked it in the basement – threw it out of the house – it peed in my shoe so I wacked it on the nose” etc. The cat will become MORE impossible if treated this way. They are the opposite of dogs – you cannot possibly discipline them. They will simply take revenge – you can’t win in a battle of wills with a cat. You can only give in and agree that they are superior. And once you do you will have a perfectly loving and wonderful pet.

    Unless a cat has been abused at a young age, this will work. I’m not saying you can turn around a cat who has learned to truly fear humans, some of them will simply be mean forever, in self defense. But most cats, all they want is the respect and admiration they are due.

  152. I didn’t make this clear – he’s peeing in the hall to mark the territory. If you can assure him that it is ENTIRELY his territory – there is NO QUESTION it is his territory – he will not have to pee there to mark it. He is taking extreme measures because there is a dispute over the territory. He has to feel he has WON the territory and then all such unpleasantness will stop.

    Cats are totally territorial, unlike dogs, who want to please the others in the pack, particularly those above them in the hierarchy. Cats are like ranch owners – they believe all they survey is theirs: the land and all the other animals in it. You, as other animals in the territory, are part of the cat’s “holdings,” like livestock on the ranch. You come with the territory he has chosen, like all the other flora and fauna.

  153. Isn’t it very impossible to assure a cat of this when there are other animals who are territorial about the same territory, as in Melanie’s case? I mean, mr Dog would never let a cat win the territory… And I guess mr Shed Cat is aware that other cats and dogs feel they own that place.

    In our case, it actually did work (without mr Dog) — neighbourhood cats started to avoid our garden and our things to a much higher extent. You could actually see them walk around our perimeters.

    To be honest, I would probably have wanted a cat, but it was completely out of the question, and in any case we would have had to buy our own. Animals were out of the question though. There was some wacky idea that if you have animals as a child, you become allergic and my brother was a small child at the time. Also, we still went away in the summers, unable to bring cats/dogs/other pets. And parents working full time — no time for pets. But I would probably have been ok with a cat instead of a dog if I had been allowed one (but don’t tell mr Dog).

  154. Melanie · ·

    Thanks Diana! I should say I didn’t really hose the cat, I was just responding to Alicia’s observation. We do like cats, we have two very sweet ones, who get on very well with our dogs. But this is not the case with this visitor. It’s much harder to convince a terrier. I live in hope that one of the other houses shed cat visits will be able to take him in.

  155. Melanie · ·

    But really, thank you.

  156. Do you know where he comes from? He must be someone’s responsibility originally?

  157. Btw, I’m suggesting the water hose because it isn’t actually cruel — it’s wet but it’s summer, not freezing, and won’t harm the cat. I don’t know other alternatives if you can’t have the cat around. Of course, there are cruel methods. But that’s no fun, certainly. With mr D in the house I would have had to call in some pest control guys to deal with it and remove the cat. It would be impossible to live with a cat anywhere on the premises… (Not joking.)

  158. >Isn’t it very impossible to assure a cat of this when there are other animals who are territorial about the same territory, as in Melanie’s case? I mean, mr Dog would never let a cat win the territory… And I guess mr Shed Cat is aware that other cats and dogs feel they own that place.

    Yes, definitely he would have to fight it out with the other animals – you can’t control that, as my husband is always saying, that’s “cat business” and there isn’t any way you can interfere one way or the other in that.

    >Thanks Diana! I should say I didn’t really hose the cat, I was just responding to Alicia’s observation. We do like cats, we have two very sweet ones, who get on very well with our dogs. But this is not the case with this visitor. It’s much harder to convince a terrier. I live in hope that one of the other houses shed cat visits will be able to take him in.

    The other animals will sort him out. Or perhaps he will decide one of the other houses is a better option. Obviously, if you don’t want him there, you shouldn’t follow my advice to feed him :) I just have trouble remembering that not everyone thinks more cats is a good thing.

    >Btw, I’m suggesting the water hose because it isn’t actually cruel — it’s wet but it’s summer, not freezing, and won’t harm the cat.

    I don’t think it’s cruel, but it probably won’t work,unless (as you say above) you are extremely persistent and consistent. It’s true that many cats don’t like to be wet, and a spray bottle is often recommended to stop unwanted behavior – but the trick is generally that you have to be sneaky about it – it should seem to the cat like it just happens, an act of nature – they shouldn’t see you holding the hose or spray bottle, so that they connect it with you, ‘cus then it’s a power struggle. If it just continually happens that they mysteriously get suddenly wet in this place, and they don’t want to be wet, yes, that will probably eventually make them decide not to go there.

    On the other hand, some cats don’t care, and just take the attitude “Sometimes you’re wet, sometimes you’re not.”

    The other problem may be that in the winter the shed will seem attractive if it’s a warm place. You’ll want to seal it off tightly!

  159. ‘Yes, definitely he would have to fight it out with the other animals – you can’t control that, as my husband is always saying, that’s “cat business” and there isn’t any way you can interfere one way or the other in that.’

    How would you solve that, practically, if you are attached to your own cat and don’t want to risk losing it in such a fight? Hypothetically, what if Shed Cat would fight the other cats and win and they’d take off as the territory is not theirs anymore? I suspect I’d be quite fond of my own cat and perhaps not so fond of Shed Cat.

    ‘I don’t think it’s cruel, but it probably won’t work,unless (as you say above) you are extremely persistent and consistent.’

    It did actually (despite them seeing my mother every time the method was used — water guns are great, but don’t have that long a reach…), even if they could only keep it up when they were home. The cats didn’t know, though. The peeing on the porch and our furniture and in my brother’s sand box and on his toys was almost eliminated.

    Yes, for Dog’s sake, seal it off tightly…! The shed, that is. If it’s possible.

  160. “How would you solve that, practically, if you are attached to your own cat and don’t want to risk losing it in such a fight?”

    Keep the cat inside. That’s the only way to be sure – outdoor cats WILL fight over territory. They’re basically wild animals.

  161. Here’s the difference with dogs — NO WAY you’d ever accept that. I would be furious if I had my own garden and I and mr Dog could not use it because of someone else’s animals. I would be absolutely mad with that other person who wouldn’t keep their animal locked up if it disturbed us. If that other dog kept coming to my place to pick fights — no, forget it!

    You would accept it once or twice if accidental, but having someone else’s dog take threatening to take over your garden, fighting over it as were it his/her territory… it’s unthinkable. I mean, dogs are territorial too, but you would never accept the consequences of that behaviour.

  162. Well, of course, I agree, but this is on the owners, not the animals. And there are an awful lot of uncared for animals – there are MILLIONS of feral cats. They don’t have homes with humans, many won’t come near a human. If it was my neighbor’s pet cat that was getting out and hassling my cat (or dog), yes, I’d be upset with the neighbor for not keeping track of it. But most of the feral cats, there’s no one to go complain to.

    Of course, that is a huge difference with dogs. They are far more domesticated than cats; they want to be with humans and are loyal to a person or family much more than to a place. So you can much more easily stake out where this dog belongs (i.e., your own backyard), keep it there, and hope other dog owners are responsible and do the same (keep their dog in its yard and out of yours). Cats are much less manageable. Which is one of the reasons a lot of people hate them. They live in very close proximity with humans but are just maybe one small step removed from “wild.”

  163. Melanie · ·

    It is very comfortable in the shed, and there’s lots of food. We have to get a window mended.. Our little girl cats seem no threat to it at all, but I suspect the fell terrier would kill it if she could corner it, albeit with injury. Her family were bred to pursue foxes down the holes they escaped to from the hunt, and tear them to pieces. There’s no longer hunting with hounds in England btw – it’s illegal, but the terrier jaw remains.

  164. Unfortunately, to protect a comment author from harassment and threats, I’ve removed three comments from this thread.

    I cannot even begin to explain what utter disrespect I feel for the thuggish behaviour displayed by the NZ/UK couple. I hope the Titirangi Steiner school has been able to collect ample evidence of the pattern of behaviour these two engage in, should it be the that the ‘human rights’ case is still ongoing.

  165. yes – my sympathies to the woman concerned.

  166. Oh dear.

    I checked out her latest tweets. I think it’s a shame the increased societal concern about bullying in general can be exploited by people like them, who constantly find themselves in situations where they are “bullied,” “censored,” “mobbed” etc. when all that’s really happening is that they can’t get along with people. Every web site they’ve been banned from, “mobbed” them and then “censored” them. Funny how I’ve interacted with so many of those same web sites myself for years, without getting mobbed or censored.

    Pretty simple really, she’s built a whole worldview around the idea that she is repeatedly victimized, not least for her disability. I am TRULY sick of hearing about her disability. She apparently thinks she’s the only person in the world with a disability or any form of pain or suffering. I can’t stand people like that; I’ve dealt with people like her far too long in my own personal life – people who cannot “see” other people, but believe every story is about them. I wouldn’t even REMEMBER she had a disability if she weren’t so convinced I and all the other nasty critics are trying to victimize her for her disability.

    Her latest screed on “Steinermentary” revolve around the idea that “critics” are some kind of gentleman’s club; we all prefer to dig up “ancient texts” rather than (what? well, what we should be doing is helping her make videos about HER story, I guess.) She says none of us, or our children, were “really” injured by Waldorf/anthroposophy. I say she can’t have read very closely – not surprising, because to get to know people and actually “get” their stories, you have to try to interact like a human, step outside yourself and your victimization narrative and try to get to know other people. She took some quote from me not long back about how my son doesn’t even remember Waldorf, as an indication that I had no real grievance with Waldorf. Quite a failure of understanding. (He’s nineteen, and left Waldorf when he was six. Like most teenagers, he doesn’t spend a lot of time reminiscing about preschool. Does she believe that things we don’t remember can’t have effects in our later lives?)

  167. And Sune is now saying sorry to them on Twitter for something he said (which, well, I won’t complete the sentence). I guess they achieved with threatening behaviour what I could never achieve with either emotion or reason (for behavior that was much worse on his part).

    I’m not really up for this anymore. I think I’d be very happy to hand over these threads to someone else, to be honest. There are good reasons these threads should be up and online, but I’m not really the right person.

  168. Diana — by not remembering her foot, you’re obviously victimizing her again. It’s sickening and tiring and nobody can stand having people like this in their life.

    As for her ‘important’ story vs digging up old texts, I do indeed prefer the latter.

    If were writing anybody’s personal story, it would be my own. There’s certainly enough to tell. I wouldn’t want to to that for the sake of anyone else (least of all them) though nor would I do it to sue the hell out of someone. I’m simply uninterested in that kind of stuff.

  169. “Sune is now saying sorry to them on Twitter for something he said”

    I saw that – cracked me up. Had never seen Sune simply courteously apologize!

    Yes I know – as you know I’ve got hands-on experience with people who require you to overtly testify that you are aware of and sorry for their suffering, hour by hour, or if you don’t, you’re actually inflicting new injuries on them, even if you weren’t even thinking of them. If you make the mistake of forgetting THEIR pain for 5 minutes, just ‘cus there are occasionally other things you must do or think about, that don’t involve them, they experience this as betrayal.

    Yes you and me both – give me “ancient texts” any day.

  170. I think the quote about my son may also have confused her because it doesn’t occur to her that I have things to say about Waldorf as result of what I saw happen to OTHER people’s children. I cannot recall hearing/seeing her express interest in the problems of other people’s children. Their narrative is exclusively about their family and the traumas it has experienced. Believe it or not, even though my own son was not bullied or mistreated in Waldorf, I saw other children who were harmed and that is why I began writing about it on the Waldorf critics list.

    In the critics archives, you can find hundreds of stories like this from me.

    She is also unaware, apparently, of the Waldorf survivors group, which isn’t currently active but which I and several other people poured thousands of hours into over several years. Little discussion of “ancient texts” there.

    I also have quite a bit to say about the long-term effects of what I feel was a very poor start academically for my son. They did him a major disservice academically. He got over it. He’s not scarred; he went to good schools after Waldorf, got a very good education, and is presently sorting out his options (he’s currently taking paramedic training and hasn’t decided on educational options after that).

    So I don’t have a story about people holding his head under the water so I am not supposed to have anything to say about Waldorf? Think again Angel. Maybe stop talking and do some reading, in the archives of the critics list and elsewhere online, to find out what has ACTUALLY happened to all the people you think decided, out of nowhere, to victimize YOU? Like why would we do such a thing? We never even heard of you.

    I would be a little silly trying to claim my son was harmed in the later grades when he didn’t attend the later grades … she may not be aware how long ago my son attended Waldorf. (Since everything started with THEIR family.) Have you noticed how many times she’s said things like, “There were no reports of this before …” and people say, “Huh?” like where have you been for the past couple of decades? Oh, things happened to other children before you even had children? Who knew.

  171. There are many times he should have apologized. And this is the time he chooses to do it. And for once — I don’t think he should have. The question was not at all unreasonable, given the circumstances.

    Yes, give me the texts anytime. They at least have something interesting to offer. I enjoy them.

    If one doesn’t have to be around people who behave that way — you have little choice — one does best to avoid it. There is nothing controversial about choosing the people you interact with, unless possibly being bound to them for family reasons. But blogging about or discussing waldorf/steiner is basically a hobby. If I were collecting stamps, I’m sure I wouldn’t find common ground with every other stamp collector or like them all personally, nor would anyone expect that. What I’m saying is that the only one who can demand anything of my hobbies is myself, because I choose them.

  172. Re your second comment, Diana: they have not been interested to find out about anyone else. They couldn’t even fathom the basis of your committment to this, even though you certainly have talked about your ecperiences many times. But unless juicy stories to profit from fly into their mouths, there’s no interest.

    Frankly, to me it’s bizarre. They spent a relatively short time in a waldorf school. There’s been plenty of time and energy for these parents to help the children cope, emotionally and academically, with the experience. Instead they’re wasting it on lashing out at people who have done nothing wrong.

    I spent 9 *years* in a waldorf school. I’m not sure why they believe I would be so critical of it — seeing as I am also happily an anthroposophical plant. And totally uninterested in suing anyone. But I’ve had a lot of shit to deal with as a consequence of these 9 years. I should not have to suffer the obsessive outbursts of pseudotraumatized, hysterical mothers on the other side of the earth; people who were mildly affected, if at all (no point going there, but for all I care the truth may only be in an inaccessible chapter in the akasha chronicle), and have no interesting knowledge to contribute. The point is: we all have our own burdens and tasks, and if we care about others online, it’s because we want to and choose to. Not anything else.

    For all their own tremendous sufferings, they seem all too happy to inflict pain on others. I suppose the logic is: other people are obligated. Whether it’s the damn foot or caring about their children or whatever.

  173. just a note – you don’t have to have suffered a particular experience to care about it happening to others; to write about it, campaign against it or to support those who do. Plenty of individuals who have recently written or commented about Steiner Waldorf ed have not experienced it directly as parents/children/teachers. It is pseudoscientific, potentially harmful, is not honestly presented to parents etc – plenty of reasons why people might be interested or concerned.

    Diana’s contribution to the debate about SW ed is huge, there’s no disputing that.

  174. ‘ancient texts’ eh? Is that the Akashic chronicle? Or something from the distant 20th century…?

  175. Crap. Wrote comment, mistakenly pressed cancel instead of reply.

    To make a long story short, then: WTF, Sune.

    Nobody cares about her disability. It’s for her family to care about, for her friends, not random strangers online. Neither you nor me would know a thing about it, had she not gone on and on about it. I wish I’d never heard about it, believe you me. It’s *totally* unrelated to the steiner issue, to their projects, to the steiner school… (to every single thing that I could even remotely have cared about gad I not realized that in this case all of that was junk too).

    Right now I’m sick and tired of it — that foot apparently absolves her from responsibility for her own actions and confers a duty on everyone else to agree, like, support. Which means you’re in the same bout I am, the boat for people who don’t show due respect for the disabled. Per definition. Personally, I think it’s reasonable to think people with a bad foot possess the same capacities of mind as everyone else and that special treatment would be wrong. (I was wrong, apparently.) Of course, I also tend to hold anthroposophists to the same moral standards as everyone else.

    Tonight I really wish the entire world to hell.

  176. Ancient texts must be the stuff Steiner penned in earlier incarnations. Aristoteles is quite ancient by now.

    You should know about ancient texts, old Lucretius!

  177. oh yes, sorry *blushes*

  178. These old souls, they never remember their own previous work! It’s a scandal.

    Two thousand years from now there will be dogs reincarnating who have forgotten about their own howls on youtube in 2012. I’m just saying. ‘Woof? Ancient howls? Me?’ they’ll say.

  179. She claimed her disability prevented her from reacting to her child being drowned, as I recall. Then, when another parent stepped in, she went into self-diagnosed shock which lasted until the next morning. The child, apparently, didn’t have the emotional support of her mother after being drowned. She’s overreacting now because she underreacted then – and making up excuses why she was “unable” to do anything while witnessing the bullying herself. I, personally, don’t think her story has a leg to stand on…

  180. She’s on twitter right now asserting that this thread is “mobbing.”

    Melanie – thank you but a bit of an exaggeration. I do like to think I’ve made a few points!

  181. Really this beats all. She’s got me TAKING SUNE’S SIDE. How is this possible?

    Sune tweets that if she has a disability that makes her more prone to being bullied, and she chastises him for this, implies he is blaming the victim! His meaning was clear, and for once, it was even in perfectly good English. He clearly meant to say, well, just what he said. He was trying to empathize. And got bashed for it. She thinks people are bashing her who are trying to reach out and relate; which I guess explains why you’re actually her enemy if you don’t bother trying to relate to her.

    She’s also hoping to score points by accusing us of not being good feminists. Angel, you have no clue who you are talking to. Being a feminist involves more than just spending hours a day retweeting news stories about women’s issues around the globe and begging people to “follow” and “retweet” all your own utterances.

  182. “They couldn’t even fathom the basis of your committment to this, even though you certainly have talked about your ecperiences many times.”

    That’s right. This is my final word on this and on them – we’re practically from different planets. My worldview and theirs have few points of overlap. They’re basically tabloid writers or content creators (or videographers). They’re “stirrers” – their business is trouble. My activities re: Waldorf or anthroposophy would never be of interest to them, because there are no salacious details that would – what was that phrase they used, about how shocking video is supposed to be? “disruptive technology” – I have no story that calls for “disruptive technology” or would be titillating to reenact on a video. I’m a text-based human. For my story or my son’s, there would be no reason to take a video camera to a beautiful wild beach and play scary music and pretend to be filming something out of Hitchcock. I have no shock value. I am someone who drones on, year after year, about literacy, and treating small children as people, and about safety and hygiene, and child psychology, and about the immorality of ascribing illness or injury or abuse to “karma,” and who pursues an interest in Steiner’s and other “ancient texts.”

    They have no respect for someone like me and the feeling is mutual. (IIRC she called me a mealy-mouthed matron. Or was that someone else? One loses track of the insults. Tarjei still wins the prize, he called me a malignant lying cocksucking rat once.)

    I have one final question for you Angel – how do you think you would know about it, if any of the people you fume at endlessly might be disabled or not?

  183. Ironically, I have a “bad foot” myself at the moment … just one of life’s little ironies. Nothing like her bad foot, I’m sure – just an injury that I have to stay off of as much as possible for a little while. (I keep imagining I’m still young and able to do athletic things, and my body thinks otherwise.)

  184. Anonymous · ·

    personally I think you spend far to much time discussing other Steiner critics and attacking their credibility and for anyone interested in Waldorf education and who wants to hear views from outside Steiner and to discuss freely about the topics, and NOT about other subscribers, your time would be better spend on actual Waldorf issues or solving world hunger!

  185. Well, anonymous, I’ve explained this a million times: my blog is not about informing people about waldorf, nor is it about solving world hunger.

    And if I’m attacked repeatedly by creeps who even pose a danger to others who might unknowingly get involved in their projects — should I be quiet about it? I don’t think so. I have a tip for you: if you’re going to ‘advise’ others not to stand up for themselves against bullies and thugs, at least sign with your own name. (PS. It’s entirely voluntary to subscribe to comment threads on this blog.)

    Diana — yes, she was the one calling you a mealy-mouthed matron. And, oddly, Sune has been saying things that are basically true. Except for the fact that online her foot disability is irrelevant, and it’s utterly irrelevant to the topics. When this started I had no idea it existed. I would have said the same things if I’d known. If anyone is bullied (rather than simply objected to) it sure as hell isn’t her.

    My way of doing things is also very different from theirs. I’m not interested in the tabloids; I’m not interested, actually, in media participation. Least of all the sleazy kind.

  186. ‘your time would be better spend on actual Waldorf issues or solving world hunger!’ Solving world hunger (which I agree is more important) would involve addressing complex political, economic and geopolitical factors; we would need to possess significant powers transcending national boundaries. We could discuss the subject on this blog, but I doubt it would help anyone.

  187. We could. Not that I have any particularly bright thoughts to offer. Besides, the argument is silly. Why catch thieves when there are murderers, and so on and so forth. I suggest anonymous goes ahead and solve world starvation instead of…whetever s/he is doing at the moment (surely something less important).

    I agree about one thing though. It’s a pity it has to be this way. This waste of time, et c. Completely unnecessary to revive this had not the two of them sent threats to a commenter in the thread.

  188. I guess that it won’t come as a surprise to anyone if I reveal that the anonymous commenter this morning happens to be located in New Zealand. (I have not had access to a computer and couldn’t check before.)

  189. those who live by litigation will.. well, you get my drift.

  190. You’ve confirmed my sense that they want things removed here that will suggest a pattern to the human rights panel, were they to read it.

    She’s whining on twitter that we’ve asked her direct questions and she’s not allowed to answer here. Hon – you sound off all day long on twitter – all day long. Feel free to reply THERE so that your loyal followers will have any questions cleared up for them. How is that you know whether any of the critics you’ve talked to might be disabled, if you haven’t met them in real life? (Or even then.)

    The world of the ultra-self-absorbed is often not a very logical place. There are lots of things that people who think mainly about themselves can’t understand about the rest of the world.

  191. Such as, not everyone who has a disability or a medical problem tweets about it all day long, or necessarily ever talks about it in public at all. A few days of her tweets and you’ll know details of her latest surgery. Ever hear of “too much information”? I just don’t tweet or blog about my medical appointments; I don’t figure the public is really interested, only people I’m close to.

    Just a different worldview. When talking about Steiner, I talk about Steiner, not myself.

    I also don’t confuse my son’s reality with my own. Granted, her children are a lot younger than mine, so it’s a more daily thing with her, which is understandable. But it’s interesting that it confused her that if nothing terrible happened to my son in Waldorf, I would have no reason to be talking about the topic.

  192. I’m sure this will show up on her twitterfest as my telling her she’s not allowed to talk about her disability, my “censoring” her and my discriminating against her because she has a disability … Life = irony.

    FWIW, I don’t mean to suggest people shouldn’t blog about their health issues, if they want. The Internet is full of such blogs. I’m objecting not to a person writing about their disability, and I’m certainly not objecting to advocacy for the rights of the disabled. But she inserts personal and irrelevant information about her own problems into every discussion whether it’s relevant or not, she confuses her personal issues with her children’s issues, and she uses the fact that she has some physical infirmity to bludgeon other people in unrelated arguments. You can’t disagree with her, and you can’t object to her behavior in any way, or you’re victimizing a disabled person.

  193. I choose not to see their tweets unless they’re to Sune, in which case I am unfortunately afflicted with all of their various accounts ;-)

    I would not mind at all her talking about her disability or disability in general or health issues, unless she was doing it to bludgeon other people in discussions where her disability or anyone else’s is not even remotely an issue. I’m not sure how it even came about. I don’t think it’s out of the question to wonder how the drowning story holds up — and I suppose that’s where the foot came in. Personally, and I think this goes for everybody, I understand that if you have a bad foot, you can’t run as fast as you otherwise would. That’s really not the problem. The problem was the entire story, and how it was dealt with subsequently (not restricted to the moment the incident is supposed to have taken place).

    By saying I would not mind it at all — I mean as long as I’m free to choose whether to read it or not. Lots of people blog and tweet about issues like that, fair enough. I’m sure there are people who write very well and very insightfully on such topics. Again, that’s a good thing.

    But Angel just can’t know the health status of any of the people she tries to communicate with or post slurs at — unless she knows them personally. In most cases she has no clue. And it shouldn’t matter at all, as long as somebody’s disability is not directly relevant to the issue at hand.

    ‘Just a different worldview. When talking about Steiner, I talk about Steiner, not myself.’

    I can’t keep myself out. Or perhaps it’s Steiner I can’t keep out of my self.

    And mr Dog objects to me confusing his reality with my own (especially as far as the food issue is concerned), so I have to be careful not to do that ;-)

  194. If she didn’t exaggerate, and self-dramatize, she’d have more credibility. I’d never have had any doubts about the near-drowning story if it weren’t for the silliness about her being “in shock” for 12 hours afterwards. If you want me to be concerned for your child, leave out your own symptoms, ‘kay? I’m familiar with that routine.

  195. I’ve said it before, but for me it was, among other things, their general behaviour towards people and to see them exaggerate and distort both this and other things that made all of it, including the drowning story, much less credible. To the point where I actually didn’t give a damn what had happened or not. To me, what’s happened to me and others subsequently speaks against Angel’s and Steve’s version of the events at the school being accurately reported. The degree of inaccuracy is impossible to determine and, again, at this point I doubt it matters.

    It seems to me it’s all just a very bad pattern that is repeated — the Steiner school, the other critics, the person involved with the next school (whose comments I deleted upon request, after threats, yesterday).

  196. I hope your foot improves soon, Diana.

  197. We hope so too!

    Actually, we, because mr Dog understands what a bad paw means now. He hurt his paw a little and had to limp; it was all very tragic (he accused me). Although, suspiciously, he briefly forgot his sufferings when he saw a cat. But that’s another story. I don’t expect Diana to feel better just seeing a cat (but mr Dog still thinks it’s worth trying). I digress. In his case it was nothing serious, he had a tiny bruise on the pad. But the suffering… the suffering… the tortured countenance…

    I had this epiphany the other day, thinking that ageing seems to be to discover the potential for pain in areas you didn’t even know existed.

    ‘You need to look at more bunnies’, mr Dog said to me, quite worried. (Looking at bunnies is the equivalent of smoking something extremely intoxicating.)

  198. I’ve tried to explain this to Sune a dozen times. Once you lose your credibility, there’s no getting it back. That’s probably why he uses so many aliases… to achieve momentary credibility with readers. Once they realize it’s him, however, the story changes. Steve Hale’s in the same situation. So are a few of the heads of AWSNA.

  199. That is absolutely true. Which, I suppose, is something people who do this sometimes realize and we see them do even sillier things to ‘excuse’ themselves.

    That said — general credibility is pretty difficult to regain — I’d personally be very willing to greet any change in Sune with enthusiasm ;-) Mild, but anyway. As far as his actions over two decades online, however, that’s pretty irreparable as far as credibility is concerned. In general. But he obviously sometimes says things that might just be correct. Even if by fluke.

  200. …and then, of course, being Sune, reverts to silly. I’ve not ever, I think, seen someone so eager to appear good, nice and so forth (even being dishonest to achieve the right impression), and failing so utterly (it would be, i m o, more appealing if he simply went for honesty — do you hear that Sune? — instead of fake and failed concern and so on). In some way I think he overthinks what he and the movement will look like, but fails to take into account how that tinge (er…) of easily detectable dishonesty is perceived. There’s a certain refreshing feeling to that instance when he admitted he wanted to punch you (Pete). Not that I think Sune is the type who punches people, but I believe he managed to illustrate his own feelings accurately. Which is rare.

  201. Yes, that was quite a refreshing moment. I suspect there are a few in the Anthropsophical world who wouldn’t mind taking a swing at me – it must mean I’m doing something right. Sune felt frustrated back then (perhaps a little bullied), and he wanted to strike me and managed to actually say so. All over a Wikipedia article.

    Now, imagine, now, how frustrated parents can get when a school system constantly lies in promotional materials, lies to parents in person, and promotes a dishonesty in every exchange with people on the internet. Do parents have a right to feel frustrated (to the point of striking out) when a school system behaves like Waldorf does? ABSOLUTELY!

    Sune has lost his credibility, sure, but in promoting Steiner so dishonestly, he gave critics an incentive to dig deeper into Steiner’s OWN credibility – and what we found was Steiner telling teachers to LIE DIRECTLY to parents. In the sense of promoting Anthroposophy, Sune thinks he is being a good Anthroposophist (we all know Sune’s interpretations of Steiner are a little off anyway). Anthroposophists are missionaries who push their religion covertly onto people’s children. Sune doesn’t find shame in that, but I’ll keep pointing it anyway.

    Hey, it has been a great week for Waldorf critics. We’ve witnessed YET ANOTHER RACIST Waldorf teacher ‘coming out’ at Mothering.com (and then disappearing when confronted with her statement – when it was pointed out that it reflected Steiner’s views). Sune claims that “individual” Waldorf teachers may be racist but Waldorf isn’t. Problem is, there are LOTS of different ways to be a racist, yet when a Waldorf teacher is discovered to be racist, their beliefs ALWAYS align with Steiner’s.

    One last thing… I sometimes follow my signature with the words “CRITICAL MASS”. This is what Waldorf is experiencing with the internet. Waldorf’s problems have hit critical mass… the world has access to this information now… unlike a few years ago… and they ARE reading about Waldorf’s problems right on their phones. More and more people ‘have heard of Waldorf’ but not in a good way. Anthroposophy is already going underground… but it’s too late!

  202. you’re right, Pete – I do think the internet is exposing this movement. And it was Sune’s behaviour on mumsnet which alerted me that something was badly wrong with a school system I’d been involved with years before. I thought it was academically poor and I suspected something nasty was in their woodshed, but I didn’t know what that was. Sune’s antics inspired me to find out. My activism is largely his fault. Take a bow, Sune!

  203. I’m getting more bottles of champagne from the cellar, so let’s raise a toast to Sune for his achievements! Cheers!

    Unfortunately for the anthroposophists, there was a whole lot more than gnomes hiding in that woodshed.

    Totally unrelated, or perhaps not, but I can’t hear the word ‘woodshed’ without thinking about this song.

    It’s good, so I don’t need any other reason for posting it, do I?

    But you have not bludgeoned anthroposophy and taken off with all the money and the whole Goetheanum, yet, Melanie.

    Pete:

    ‘Sune felt frustrated back then (perhaps a little bullied), and he wanted to strike me and managed to actually say so.’

    Yes, that’s how I read it too. Somehow, to me, that’s more understandable than many of his other shenanigans that only make him look fake.

    ‘We’ve witnessed YET ANOTHER RACIST Waldorf teacher ‘coming out’ at Mothering.com (and then disappearing when confronted with her statement – when it was pointed out that it reflected Steiner’s views). Sune claims that “individual” Waldorf teachers may be racist but Waldorf isn’t.’

    Oh dear. I missed that. Do you have a link, or has the Mothering removed this already? (Maybe you posted on critics, but I might have missed it there, I was without a computer most of the week and only looked at things very quickly.)

    It is indeed a very different thing these days, a lot better opportunities for people to know more. On the other hand, I have a feeling — based upon the Swedish situation only — that waldorf schools were more happily, proudly and openly anthroposophical 30 years ago than they are today. I’m not sure if I’m right, but it is my hunch. Maybe it had to do with many parents being anthros themselves. Or something else. Maybe that the positive’ sides were more unquestioned back then.

    Personally I feel very unfrustrated these days. There’s not a single anthroposophist I want to punch. A bit boring, huh?

  204. wonderful vid. We should have a holiday in Venice on the strength of that alone – as the skeptics say – a Social. I’ve memories of my nine year old son painting the gondolas on the Grand Canal at the same window from which, long before, Turner painted. At least that’s what the housekeeper told us and there was no one to disagree, least of all Turner. And what does it matter? The ethereal kiosk is adjacent to Venice in the imagination.

  205. great comments on those threads, Pete.

  206. Very adjecent to Venice. Neighbour practically. We have our own gondolas.

    In my other life, I visited Venice long ago (over 20 years ago). It was june, too hot, bad hotel (outside Venice) and not all that pleasant. Tourist trap feeling.

    That’s interesting, Pete. Astounding stuff. Not just the race stuff, but some of the rest. (Annoying waldorf teacher who can’t use quotes but uses red colour instead to separate her comments from those of others.) There are so many things that person writes that make me want to scream.

    But for now I’m drifting towards sleep, safely on my gondola.

  207. .. we went in December, I recommend. Travel tip there….

  208. the post Waldorf support thread at mothering.com has re-opened and someone has thanked Pete! Although there’s a no-bickering order.

    The bossy red-ink Waldorf teacher sloped off, after some highly illustrative comments. A contributor adds:

    “I’d like to re-open the space to those recovering from their waldorf experience – without the risk of denialist backlash from the sing-song Waldorf Borg.

    Not interested in rejoining your cult, thank you very much.”

    http://www.mothering.com/community/t/683104/life-after-waldorf-a-support-group/1120#post_17088761

    The ‘Waldorf Borg’ described the many negative experiences described on the thread as ‘ad hom’. It warms the heart, does it not?

  209. Just caught up on that Mothering thing – Pete, I know you sent me the links awhile back, but I forgot. Great job.

    I noticed she kept referencing Aristotle. Whenever anthroposophists do that, it provides a great opening to shine the light on their peculiar type of dishonesty. Point out that anthroposophists think Steiner was Aristotle reincarnated!!

    She kept saying she loves Aristotle and she excuses him the stupid things he said about women because he was, well, Aristotle. It was cracking me up. It’s a textbook example of anthroposophical slyness, not to mention comically bizarre logic. Well of course if you can excuse Aristotle (for … whatever), you can excuse Steiner if they’re THE SAME PERSON. LOL

  210. Yes, I was tempted to bring the Aristotle connection into the conversation, since she did. Unfortunately, I can no longer post of even answer private messages sent to my account. I left my profile active so my posts don’t disappear. I’m very glad they reopened the thread though.

  211. Just had a peek at Sune’s other strawman website: http://www.americans4waldorf.org/Summary.html

    “Children are damaged who are pulled out of their independent Waldorf school or Waldorf-methods school because of the publication of untrue stories. Children are victims who never have the opportunity to attend an indepdendent Waldorf or Waldorf-methods school because of the publication of defamatory and demonizing myths by PLANS at its site. Parents are being methodically deceived about the nature of Waldorf education by Dugan as part of his “philosophical” crusade.”

    Sune seems to actually “get” the fact that deceiving parents is harmful to both the parents and their children. So, why doesn’t he “get” that he’s deceiving parents when he pretends to be a mother with children in Waldorf – all over the internet. Or when he suggests studies conducted by Anthroposophists were “independent”? Certainly, he must know, by now, that he is taking Steiner’s quotes out of context in order to make him appear less racist. Why doesn’t he consider it a deception when he threatens websites with lawsuits in order to censor content. Where is the honesty to parents on the Waldorf side of this debate Sune?

    I have documented hundreds of families who have taken their children out of Waldorf – based on what they witnessed themselves. I know of LOTS of families who have regretted putting their children Waldorf. I’m not aware of ANY family who has regretted taking their children out of Waldorf. Is anyone?

  212. Sune must hope that by doggedly ploughing on, repeating the same nonsense, linking to the same disclaimers and discredited ‘analysis’, making the same daft accusations etc he will eventually bludgeon the truth into submission. The man is a frigging internet zombie.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfDUv3ZjH2k

  213. Unfortunately, according to the video link, our only option is to cut off Sune’s head. They mentioned “destroying the brain” was another option, but in Sune’s case, I don’t think we’ll be able to tell if we’ve succeeded. Off with his head!

  214. that’s EXACTLY what I was thinking. So, which album do you sacrifice?

  215. I don’t know, I hardly think about Sune for months and then he pops up all over the place: http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/a1539935-Talk-to-me-about-Steiner

  216. Oh, Sune. *sigh*

    I hadn’t seen that page you linked to, Pete. Or if I had, Ihad forgotten.

    It’s interesting how publishing stuff like that can really only harm the movement he’s trying to defend. It ends up looking ludicrous.

  217. I’m happy to excuse both Steiner and Aristotle for a great many things. If they need excusing, which I doubt. Today’s anthros and waldorf teachers/proponents, however… Now, that’s another matter. One has to judge their behaviour towards what’s considered ok according to the standards of 2012…

  218. Oh, that’s hysterical on the mumsnet thread, rational discussion going on and “Tizian” appears from a cloud of smoke to announce cryptically “CEO of American Express” (linky). Reply from ordinary parent: “Huh?” Reply from Steiner blissninny: Oh, look, everyone – Kenneth Chenault is BLACK!!!!! Therefore the Steiner schools cannot be racist!! Yay Steiner schools.” Critical thinking skills, check ‘em at the door please (or expect the teacher to confiscate them along with your plastic toys).

  219. It’s unbelievable.

    There are two things I am very curious about re Sune. One is, why he personally feels so strongly about anthroposophy. What he has gained from it (other than futile entertainment defending it?). I always wonder that about people who spend so much effort defending it and pointing out perceived ‘mistakes’ of others rather than explaining why it means so much to them and to the world. I’m just saying that it would sometimes be interesting to know more about that. Because it’s not at all obvious what Sune gets back from anthroposophy. The other thing is what he believes anthroposopy and waldorf gains (because I presume gain is the motive) from this ludicrous obesession with celebrities. I want to know why a movement that shuns so much of the modern world can gain from associating itself with (sometimes utterly pointless and talentless television) celebrities.

  220. Without wanting to get too personal, I believe he is from an anthroposophist family. I could be wrong – it is just gossip. But early influences, early ties, can be the most profound. It can be hard to imagine that other people, born in quite different circumstances, feel just as strongly that their family’s beliefs are true.

  221. Also, adherence to a totalizing system – a theory that explains absolutely everything, even the fact that other people disagree with it – can be very hard to get away from. Anthroposophy is like psychoanalysis, where if you offer a criticism of it, we’ll just analyze YOU. Doubts and criticisms are integrated into the system and end up confirming the system. When you raise a child in such a system, I think you make it pretty hard for the child to question. This is true of religion in general too, of course, nothing special about anthroposophy.

  222. Ah, yes, being born into it is one important factor, clearly. Though most don’t turn out that way despite this — I have a hunch, it’s just a hunch, that many/most continue to be unable to see the bad things (or voice any concerns about it) but at the same time they’re only mildly interested, at most sending their own kids to waldorf because that’s what you do.

    Of course, if he grew up with it (that is, if the gossip is true), it would be interesting to hear about that too. I have a vague memory of him saying something like he wished he had been in waldorf school, or something like that, and also of him saying he went to ordinary, state school. (I really don’t remember much about this.) I wonder why, if his family was anthroposophical, he didn’t attend a waldorf school.

  223. Woof…

  224. “and my response will be to refer them to the reply given in Arkell v. Pressdram ”

    WOOF WOOF!

  225. David Clark · ·

    I closed my Twitter account some time ago.

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