to järna with love (xiv)

Early August. The fields of Ytter-Järna. (In front of Kulturhuset.)

There’s a bee, too! It wasn’t the best photo of the lovely corn-flowers, but it was the only one with a bee.

I read a great book today, and I thought: if anthroposophy can inspire this, it sure is worth something. Then you go online, and are immediately disabused of your illusions. No, I don’t really mean that. What I do mean, however, is that almost the entire waldorf movement — and its inhabitants — is making anthroposophy look like something so utterly destructive. Anthroposophy should lose waldorf. Waldorf people are fanatical assholes. All these people with their unbearable superiority complex, all this hypocrisy, all this complete uselessness, this dishonesty, this inability to look any further than the personal (and the inability to distinguish knowledge from experience), this uncritical adoption of waldorf ‘truths’, this complete self-absorption (‘my kid is fantastic, which proves you wrong’ — well, go to hell).

I know whose thinking is black and white — and it sure isn’t mine.

There’s something deeply troubling about waldorf mothers. There’s a belief so strong it becomes dangerous. It’s the belief which harmed me. Outsiders rarely understand how powerful it is, this belief. But for someone like me to try to communicate with such a soul. I can’t. When people say there’s no violence in waldorf schools — I say, fuck you! There is. The problem with mothers is that they so much want paradise for their children that they happily believe any prospect and promise — no matter how unrealistic. This just goes on and on. And these ‘discussions’ keep repeating themselves. But the drive is too strong. You can’t fight other people’s beliefs, when they need these beliefs.

It doesn’t matter what I think about anthroposophy or Rudolf Steiner, it doesn’t matter which things I feel admiration or even love for — there are other things I just can’t deal with.

It is, for example, this waldorf mindset, for want of a better expression — I won’t say it’s unique to waldorf or that everybody involved in waldorf displays it –, which causes an allergic reaction in me. It’s as though my instincts tell me I need to piss this person off as much as I can. Maybe it’s some delayed revenge kind of thing. Maybe it’s resentment and anger still lingering. Maybe it’s just my inability, my not being able to do anything else; my wanting to kick and scream because I know no rational way of dealing with people like this. It feels like someone is trying to lock me up in a confined space with my waldorf kindergarten teacher.

If I finally learnt one thing in waldorf, after many years of not getting it — it’s this: it’s better to be the one who strikes first. And if someone strikes you, you strike them ten times harder. You make sure they know you loathe them.

I’m off topic, of course. I just wanted to say I love this field, I love this corn-flower, I loved this day in Järna — it was wonderful (and because I’m an evil person, everyone will assume I’m being ironic; I’m not though) and I almost felt my pictures weren’t lovely enough, but they’ll have to do — I love writers and I love art, and I kind of love Steiner in my very own way, and I sort of like being confusing (especially to bees! but they’re easily confused) even if I can’t help it, and I’d rather be a paradoxical question than a dogmatic answer; but there are things I can’t do much about, my disrespect for die-hard believer waldorf mothers is one of them. If I ever begin to meditate, I won’t meditate on the concept of waldorf motherhood, because it does nothing but agitate me, to no avail whatsoever.

Maybe it’s the whole notion of people deciding to be parents I can’t stand. Why do people do such stupid things? That’s what I’d like to know. No, come to think of it, I don’t.

Now, back to the fields, back to interesting thoughts, back to interesting reads.

119 thoughts on “to järna with love (xiv)

  1. A- I find comfort in believing that there is no life experience more special than another. When people separate themselves from others due to their ‘right beliefs’ I suspect that more growth is needed.
    I also know for sure that every human will experience emotional growth one way or another.

    Motherhood continues to inspire me to be present and work on my emotional health – so I don’t pass unresolved angst onto my child!
    And my disclaimer…This may all be wrong.

  2. ‘I find comfort in believing that there is no life experience more special than another.’

    True. Though, for natural reasons, one always have a special connection with one’s own life experience ;-) I know no other way to compensate for this, other than to constantly try to reflect on it. (I e, in attempting to seek knowledge about how influenced one is by one’s experiences –but of course that’s not all there is to it.)

    ‘I also know for sure that every human will experience emotional growth one way or another. ‘

    It’s inevitable. If you are alive. Though what is emotional growth — or some kind of progression — for the individual doesn’t always appear as clearly to an onlooker. Well, most of the time not even to the individual him-/herself.

    ‘… so I don’t pass unresolved angst onto my child!’

    I don’t think you have a choice — mothers (and fathers too) always pass some unresolved angst onto their children! It comes with the territory. Being aware of it may be a good step towards transferring less unresolved angst though.

    I suppose a robot parent would avoid this particular dilemma — but a robot surely would create some other kind of angst in the child!

  3. I’m not sure what has attracted me to your blog (being a waldorf mother) I suppose I appreciate your perspective which at times is startling and at others revealing, well usually both. I am also looking to broaden my awareness of anthroposophy (which is currently next to nil). I’d venture to say that many Canadian waldorf parents haven’t got much of a clue and we send out kids to waldorf because of the promise of head, heart, hand or whole person education and we see the love and dedication of many of the teachers. I’ve dealt with sick teachers who should not be near children as they have tried to destroy my kids. But I think there are fucked up people everywhere, doing the wrong job, living a life of illusion.
    Do you have entries here describing your experience as a student? I’m very curious.

  4. Alicia – this is the poem my son has written on his wall:

    ‘They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
    They may not mean to, but they do.
    They fill you with the faults they had
    And add some extra, just for you.’

    It’s tough on him that I showed it to him in the first place.

    We don’t parent, because it’s not a verb. When they were infants I was devoted. I loved having little children. Now, our household functions on food, anarchism and competitive intellectualism – a game the children intend to win (and we intend – eventually – to lose). We are not on a journey. Or at least, if the children decide to go that way it is their concern, since I am not living the journey of being a mother. I am far too busy. On the other hand I do all the usual stuff involving washing-machines and we hug a lot, so social services need not be too concerned.

    The journey of Waldorf since before conception – oh dear dog. This is the abject equivalent of feeding your brain through a mangle.

  5. Tom – does it have to be anthroposophy? Can I ask for readings from the Bible? Or possibly atm the collected works of Michael Gove?

  6. Yep, Tom — I’ll spend my days after passing the threshold, together with Sune immortal spirit, watching faceless dolls doing eurythmy. But I still haven’t decided what I’ll read to Sune when I’m still alive and he passes. Statistically, he’ll cross the threshold before me; he’s a wee bit older. I may read Peter’s dissertation. Just to cheer him up! (It could possibily shock him back to life, in which case I can take credit for a miracle!)

    Anyway — have you seen this http://bdn-steiner.ru/modules.php?name=Vortrag ?
    I remember that, a while ago, there was talk of some missing Norwegian lectures on some other verzeichnis, rsarchive’s I think. This list is interesting because there are quite a few Stockholm lectures on it. I need to figure out where these lectures took place.

  7. LBergstrome: ‘I’d venture to say that many Canadian waldorf parents haven’t got much of a clue’

    I’d venture to say this is a universal problem ;-) I think, in general, people need to know more.

    In the case of my own education, I don’t think this was a main factor. I mean, I think my mother knew way too little, but she definitely knew more than many waldorf parents I have encountered online. (And I grew up way before the internet arrived.) There were a lot fewer waldorf schools back then too. We weren’t anthroposophists, but many — if not actually most, I think I once went over it, and realized it was a huge majority — children had parents (at least one parent) who were into anthroposophy; and quite a few of these parents were waldorf teachers themselves. So obviously you can’t always blame lack of knowledge. But the more waldorf education wants to expand, the more parents they attract will be without much of a clue.

    ‘But I think there are fucked up people everywhere, doing the wrong job, living a life of illusion.’

    Indeed. It’s a matter of detecting the problems and do something about them. Waldorf’s main problem seems to me to be not the problems but the denial. Nobody asks waldorf to be perfect, but to stop pretending to be perfect.

    Do you have entries here describing your experience as a student?

    Yep, the problem is finding them ;-) no, but I think it comes up in many posts; and I know I had some entries entitled ‘waldorf tales’. Then there were the very angry posts about stupid and negligent teachers — ‘one bad apple…’ something. I only remember those because there were more than one entry. I ought to have been tagging my posts cleverly, but I haven’t.

    Thetis:

    ‘We don’t parent, because it’s not a verb. When they were infants I was devoted. I loved having little children. Now, our household functions on food, anarchism and competitive intellectualism – a game the children intend to win (and we intend – eventually – to lose).’

    I feel some respect for that. I couldn’t ever do it, and I wouldn’t want to (obviously), but there’s at least something realistic about it. Unlike all these parents who are hellbent on creating paradise. (There was an article in the newspaper yesterday, it was abotu swearing. They asked people what they thought, and one mother said she ordered everyone around her not to swear in front of her children, and if someone did anyway, she told her children that the person was stupid, basically. And that you shouldn’t swear because it’s a sign you have a bad vocabulary. I don’t think it’s a particularly nice thing to swear all the time. But it sure isn’t nice to create your personal paradise by saying nasty things about other people who don’t live up to your own standards. (That won’t teach the kids good manners or how to appreciate differences between people…) This drive of parents to discipline other free adults. As thought they have some sort of privilage as a mother, when all they had was at least one functional ovary and a provider of sperm. Also, of course, in time the children will see through the lie… and notice there’s a hell of a lot more to vocabulary, and that simplemindedness isn’t good for your vocabulary either… Well, it reminded me so much of the waldorf mentality.)

    But, to me, well, I don’t know. It’s like… it’s so incomprehensible; people having children, changing diapers, being in a family. I just want to misbehave. There should be some distant planet where people like me could move. I can’t be the only one who doesn’t understand the cravings of modern humans to live an orderly, family life. Everyone’s so perfect. Everyone’s pretending to be so responsible. ‘I save the future of the human race because I procreated, it’s the meaning of life’… I just want to scream, well RATS do it. And much more successfully, it has to be admitted.

    ‘We are not on a journey. Or at least, if the children decide to go that way it is their concern, since I am not living the journey of being a mother. I am far too busy. On the other hand I do all the usual stuff involving washing-machines and we hug a lot, so social services need not be too concerned.’

    True. But the Canineosophical Society is very troubled by the presence of cats in your household.

    (Some people are on a journey on which they parent. I bet they read the Mother magazine.)

  8. about the cats…

    I was as considerate as the next person about the habits of other children’s families. But I could not bear Waldorf superiority. They are going to get you, however hard you try. They are going to be more spiritual, their children will be less stimulated, they will be purer. I bet nuns went in for this sort of thing.

    I just watched this amazing video about Creationism – which is what I do instead of felting. http://richarddawkins.net/videos/590274-evolution-of-creationism

    Let’s talk about that instead. I think we can make it relevant.

  9. Dear Thetis – I’m egotistical enough to think you are referring to my bio with: “The journey of Waldorf since before conception – oh dear dog. This is the abject equivalent of feeding your brain through a mangle.” What can I say I’m dreamy and often write in prose.

    If you are interested, that simply means I had been curious about waldorf education long before I ever considered having children. I nannied for a single mom who taught kindergarten at the waldorf school in hawaii, what she shared was so inviting (rhythm, song, nature, imagination…) but also what she shared of the grade school experience appealed to me too.

    I was a kid that the public system failed, labled and put in a box. I felt my childhood stripped away for many reasons. I found waldorf through rebellion, looking for an alternative, not a savour. Perhaps it is presented differently here?

    I do feel my life is a journey, and with young children we are riding it together. I serve as guide for the time being, however I know that will change when they are teenagers and their will for self-discovery is strong.

    So the washing machine love affair never ends? I suppose the clothes just get larger! oh well, one day.

  10. I think you mean you write lyrically or poetically. I can write lyrically too – but I’m a satirist.

    I strongly suggest that you find out what Waldorf is based on. Since we’re all on Swedish territory, IKEA had an ad once that said: ‘Chuck out your chintz!’ Honestly, something similar needs to happen with those gnomes.

    You may find that your children’s will for self-discovery is pretty strong way before they’re teenagers, let’s hope so. I have the greatest respect for children.

    Life as a journey is an advertising slogan, not a philosophy. For heaven’s sake be egotistical! Be more egotistical. Look at Alicia, she has pages devoted to the smallest whim. Don’t be like her though, that would be mad. You’d be taking your children out for walks on a leash and burning the pasta. There have to be limits.

  11. Speaking of small whims, I found an even better list of Steiner’s lectures, the dates and locations. http://steinerdatenbank.de/Titelseite/Titelseite_Frameset.php?Javascript=An

    You can download an excel-sheet.

    I’m trying to find out *where* he spoke when he visited Stockholm, this was in 1908, 1910, 1912, 1913 (on the first 3 occasions he must have been a theosophist). Been digging out old addresses. A very funny coincidence I found was this: in 1914, there was a theosophical national headquarters in the building just across the street from where I live. I’ve become obsessed with this now. I have to know where he spoke and where he stayed during his visits. Sadly, google is not a good friend in this pursuit.

  12. ‘Don’t be like her though, that would be mad. You’d be taking your children out for walks on a leash and burning the pasta. There have to be limits.’

    Indeed. Though, if truth be told, it’s the mrs/mr Dog(s) of your household who would be walking your children on leash in the park while you clean out the burnt pasta pots or accidentally put one of them on your head, thinking it’s a fancy space-trip hat, and walk to the supermarket to buy potato chips (one must work on that materialism).

  13. Oh Dog. I need to figure this out. I can’t think about anything else. Must walk mr D and then desperately consult all my books, too, and they won’t tell me anything, I fear.

  14. You two are funny. I see I’m way over my head here! By nature I’m not much for debate, but thank you for engaging with me.

    I will look up your ‘waldorf tales.’ I know very few adults who went through waldorf school, so don’t have much of an anecdotal resource base to fall back on. My kids have been enrolled in two different waldorf schools which have both make a point of suggesting that Anthroposophical beliefs are not required to enroll (or stay enrolled for that matter). There are parent driven study groups etc, but nothing directly associated with the school. Is this similar in Sweden or is more overtly entwined?

    Thetis-thanks for the grammar lesson! To think since college, I had believed prose to be more poetic in nature. I’ve been unlearning all sorts of lessons! I’m doing what I can to educate myself, re waldorf, Steiner, etc. As I’ve said, I do appreciate the perspective offered here.

  15. Clearly, the theosophical association right across the street wasn’t the ‘right’ theosophical society, it was some off-shoot (don’t know if it even exists today). Besant wrote some ‘article about and protest against’ it already in 1907. The theosophical society which Steiner belonged to had its office and library a few blocks away. (They’re still a few blocks away from me — but on another address.) The anthroposophical society seems to have had several different addresses over its first years in existence. I’m still researching it.

  16. ‘Anthroposophical beliefs are not required to enroll’

    That’s the policy of waldorf schools everywhere. It was Steiner’s intention as well.

    ‘There are parent driven study groups etc, but nothing directly associated with the school. Is this similar in Sweden or is more overtly entwined?’

    I think it’s fairly similar, but I don’t know if they manage to round up enough parents to organize study groups. I think it used to be that way, though. Parents getting involved with the school, and occasionally with anthroposophy subsequently. Public funding, I suspect, has made parents less involved — its not such a big choice anymore, since they don’t pay anything for the education, and I think that as a consequence they’re less likely to be engaged in the school, and much less in the school’s underlying philosophy. That is, except for parents who are anthroposophists — but they’d be into that with or without study groups at the school.

    In your earlier comment:

    ‘I found waldorf through rebellion, looking for an alternative, not a savour.’

    I think this is very common, actually, for parents who seek out waldorf education (I mean parents who aren’t anthroposophists and don’t have that reason for it). Had I been the least inclined to be a parent, I would have rebelled the other way. In fact, my mum rebelled against herself when she realized how waldorf really wasn’t what she’d hoped — both me and my brother went to schools radically different from waldorf, in his case even more extremely so.

    The journey stuff is sort of a joke. Reading a lot online about waldorf education and similar stuff (especially the spiritual fluff stuff), you come across lots and lots of people who are on journeys. Some of these people’s writings leave you with the feeling they should stop getting quite so high on… the fluffy stuff and its metaphors. It’s not really ok to take kids on a journey to outer space. Especially if you’re intoxicated or a bad writer. No, what I am trying to say is that there’s a lot of really trite stuff around about life journeys and spiritual journeys and educational journeys and parenting journeys, et c.

    I envision all these trains running back an forth all over the world with parents and families in them, everyone on their personal journey, no co-ordination or anything — and suddenly (and independently! but they were, of course, all heading for the location of the latest sighting of an archangel) they all decide to turn their trains toward the same spot and they all run into each other in a gigantic train crash, the train crash of cosmic proportions. Anyway, this all happens because all these parents have decided to be open-minded about trains, thus they have forgotten all the important things: trains run on tracks and they run on schedules and there’s some organization to make it work.

  17. There’s is something to be said for geography, I live and grew-up in one of the worlds epicentres for fluff and far-out journeys. My vision is a little less industrial… on foot in deep forest, maybe there are a bunch of other crunchy moms trailblazing too, and maybe we’ll all meet up for a camp fire and drum jam. If any archangels show up, we’ll invite them to dance. xo

  18. Not so much trailblazing as treading a well-worn path. If an archangel did show up, which is frankly unlikely, he is quite likely to smite you. There are no tame archangels.

    I love the idea of all those train journeys – the best journeys must be on trains – the Trans-Siberian for example. I suggest putting all Waldorfians on trains but possibly to Basingstoke, or Swindon.

  19. I have to add that I just got a flyer from ‘Great Rail Journeys’ – I kid you not – and the tagline is ‘The Journey is just the start of the Adventure’.

    Sadly I suspect that arriving at Novosibirsk may not be as exciting as travelling there. But I have never been to Novosibirsk.

    More promotional videos. Hooray. This will save the world. As for the Goetheanum – who knew?

  20. I have seen those films, I realise.

    I’m reminded of my daughter’s talent at her stringed instrument – even though her school does its very best to crush her creativity. I must stop thinking about Steineristas and what to do with spare strings..

  21. I had to laugh at the suggestion to take a train ride to Basingstoke, round and round we go!

    Thetis-can I ask what your experience with Waldorf/Steiner is? Would you mind sharing?

  22. Well, it was fine, we didn’t suffer. But it was appalling academically. Some of the people were nice. I am a fan of democratic ed or student voice if that’s the best that can happen – I’m a pragmatist and an optimist, especially about young people.

    I don’t mind people following an esoteric religion in their own time but anthroposophy has no place in education. I explain why here:

    http://www.dcscience.net/?p=3528

    There are three articles which will take a while to read.

    Good luck.

  23. Speaking of journeys:
    **********
    Journey Of Self-Discovery Leads Man To Realization He Doesn’t Care

    FLAGSTAFF, AZ—Three months after setting off down a long spiritual path to find himself, 38-year-old Corey Larson arrived at the conclusion Tuesday that he does not care. “I spent many long hours meditating, studying the works of great thinkers and spiritual leaders, and delving deep within myself for some kind of answer, and then it hit me: I couldn’t care less,” Larson said of his soul-searching journey. “Fuck it. Fuck it all.” Larson briefly considered writing a self-help book to make the journey easier for others, but decided that he also didn’t give two shits about whether other people arrived at the same conclusion he did.
    ************
    http://www.theonion.com/articles/journey-of-selfdiscovery-leads-man-to-realization,19100/

  24. Oh Dog! So funny! That must be karma. Or the zeitgeist of this moment in history.

    Join us in the ethereal kiosk where Rudi has tuned his ukulele and Saul has written an ode to the death of dictatorships. We have champagne and we have nuts. Boy, do we have nuts.

  25. Just wanted to say my internet is like glue and I can hardly post anything at all or read comments here, nor tweet. I think gnomes have decided to clog my internet wires again. Perhaps they are on a journey, too. Traffic congestion.

  26. It’s OK. I have perfect acuity. I’m sitting here with two terriers and an air-rifle, any sign of gnomes and bom-bom.

  27. “… what is your experience of Basingstoke?…” none, I googled it to find it’s been nicknamed “Doughnut City” for its plentitude of roundabouts and the image stuck.

  28. Hello Alicia,
    Believe me I don’t want to patronize you and I don’t want to be paternalistic to you. I want to describe in essence your position towards the Waldorf schools in my own words so you can check I understand you well or not. Please correct me when I am misunderstanding you.
    You had a bad time at your Waldorf school. You suffered a lot. Not only were you an intelligent girl, but you also had an intellectual orientation. The Waldorf school could not handle that correctly. You did not feel understood nor recognized. Now you see the same kind of parents bringing their children to the Waldorf school as in your time. You see that the school system did not change very much. They represent the ones who have hurt you so much. You want to shake them up en tell them “do you know what you are doing?” The same you want to say to the schools. But they are not listening, because they know it better than you. You are still not understood and recognized. Your criticism becomes harder and you want to “hurt them back”. But you don’t want to hurt because of the hurting, you want that they admit they are not perfect, that mistakes were made, and still are being made. You want to see that they can look to themselves and be open for criticism.

  29. In my experience it is the Mother that has the greatest voice when it comes to choosing education for her child. Given the amount of information available today about education and waldorf – it really comes down to being -well- unconscious- on the part of the mother- that is if she is not asking questions about waldorf education, not filtering information or observing classrooms.

    Granted waldorf should be required to put forth truthful information to parents about Anthroposophy – but then again why aren’t parents seeking this information out? That to me is the biggest question.

    I wonder what would happen if more fathers got involved in the child’s education?

  30. May I ask you — anyone! — is my blog loading properly, or is it like glue…? I have huge issues. I can barely use it at all, much less load the blog itself to read comments. I can load the dashboard/major control panel, but otherwise it’s just crap.

  31. I suspect a waldorf father would go along with this education if only to keep the peace and keep mother happy.

    Unlike the stay at home type of mother that is drawn to waldorf through her own desire for community, at least father can escape to the real world with real work and real conversation!

    I mean this respectfully.

  32. >‘Anthroposophical beliefs are not required to enroll’

    I hate to constantly be the voice of cynicism, but has it not crossed your mind that the reason for this is money? There aren’t enough anthroposophists to pay the fees. It is not because anthroposophists are open minded toward those of other faiths (let alone those of no faith, who are considered basically dirt).

  33. >There are no tame archangels.

    No indeed – it’s a common misperception of Waldorf parents that all the talk of angels is something nice. Angels are often pretty mean, like gnomes.

  34. > I couldn’t care less,” Larson said of his soul-searching journey. “Fuck it. Fuck it all.”

    Reminds me of Geoff Dyer’s title “Yoga For People Who Can’t Be Bothered to Do It.”

  35. >The Waldorf school could not handle that correctly. You did not feel understood nor recognized.

    I hope Alicia won’t mind if I politely suggest to you that you have massively missed the point. “Didn’t feel understood”? I think it was something more like, beaten repeatedly over the head with a two-by-four. A literal two-by-four: she was physically assaulted in the Waldorf school.

  36. I don’t know, but it’s awfully frustrating. I’m trying to use google chrome instead of firefox now. Let’s see what happens.

    I suppose not being understood was one part of the problem, but being understood would have been a meagre source of comfort, had the other issues not been dealt with.

  37. Google chrome is shit. I can’t get rid of one billion superflous bookmarks; there’s no delete all. And it keeps proofreading what I write. And all the ads, suddenly, unbearable.

  38. Use Adblock to get rid of the ads. Chrome has all sorts of add-ons that are great. For the book marks, open the book mark manager and right click to have the option to delete. Takes a bit to get used to, but now I cringe at using any other browser.

  39. Google chrome stopped loading wordpress anyway. It’s mad. I had AdBlock, but it didn’t seem to work as good as on firefox. Plus the proofreading… utterly annoying.

  40. As for the bookmarks — nope, you couldn’t right click and choose delete. Strangely, the delete was there but you couldn’t select it. I found the solution: ctrl+a+delete, then they all went in the bin. Still, didn’t find a way to get rid of the proof-reading. It’s a total nuisance because according to American English, all words in Swedish are wrong. Not surprisingly…

    It seems the wordpress issue isn’t a browser issue then. Another thing I can’t get to is my delicious bookmarks. I can’t save and I can’t view my own bookmarks over on the delicious website.

  41. Oh Dog, some days I hate computers. I know I should leave it and stop obsessing about it. It can’t be like this three days in a row, and maybe it’s all OK again tomorrow.

  42. I tried to read your blog, http://waldorfcreative.wordpress.com/, and at first it loaded just fine. After a looking at one post, the page loading turned to glue. I would blame the pictures of knitted gnomes (I think they were on book covers, but I can’t manage to load that page again…), but I guess this time knitted gnomes are not at fault. We knitted or did that other thing with one needle, I suddenly forgot what it’s called — crocheting, yes? –, a gnome in first grade. Or second. There was a sheep too, but I don’t know if the gnome or the sheep happened first.

    I could do some of these things already, even weaving, because my maternal grandmother was a crafts teacher. In waldorf I learnt to hate it. They were very successful.

    (Eugene Schwartz is ok, though. He’s more honest than some. Which is a good thing.)

  43. https://zooey.wordpress.com/2011/02/10/to-jarna-with-love-xiv/#comment-7002

    Alicia: “I could do some of these things [knitting, crocheting] already, even weaving, because my maternal grandmother was a crafts teacher. In waldorf I learnt to hate it. They were very successful. ”

    Alicia, if you just get tired of the a/s/w some day and walk away from it all, I suggest you let this be the last comment. (Even more serious than the fact that your waldorf experience made you hate music – I understand you didn’t enter waldorf having a personal experience with music already).

  44. https://zooey.wordpress.com/2011/02/10/to-jarna-with-love-xiv/#comment-6974
    margaret
    and
    https://zooey.wordpress.com/2011/02/10/to-jarna-with-love-xiv/#comment-6975
    MarkH
    and
    https://zooey.wordpress.com/2011/02/10/to-jarna-with-love-xiv/#comment-6979
    margaret

    I very much agree, margaret and MarkH.

    ********
    Technical issues:
    Alicia, I have send you an email.
    You know where I live; we have a low capacity ADSL (“ADSL is a type of high-speed Internet access service. It uses telephone lines to transmit data”). You have probably much faster connection than I do. My previous comment (one link only) loaded immediately. I will let you know how this comment (three links) loads.

  45. This comment above (three links) loaded at about the same speed as my previous comment (one link), just this last comment came with “Please Note: Your comment is awaiting moderation.”

  46. https://zooey.wordpress.com/2011/02/10/to-jarna-with-love-xiv/#comment-7006
    loaded at the same speed.
    I am at Windows 7 OS, Explorer version 8, now.
    Yesterday (at about the time you reported difficulties at your connection) I was at an older PC system Windows XP pro service pack 3, and tested both Explorer version 8 and Chrome.
    This other older PC makes me crazy, EVERYTHING takes ages. I have bought a new portable PC, but have no time to install and transfer my stuff to it, so, I have to continue swearing at the old one. (Also: in case the a/s/w keeping track at Zooey’s blog got the impression I got tired of revealing their true face: no, but I am busy with other aspects of my live.)

  47. Alicia,
    while “walking around” at z’s and following a link to a comment contributor in between, I have noticed that I got switched from https://zooey.wordpress.com/ to https://zooey.wordpress.com/
    (i.e. the “hypertext transfer protocol” got switched to “hypertext tranfer protocol secure” without I requesting the switch (by changing from http to https in the URL)). This issue is a WordPress server issue, I think, and your difficulties loading may have to do with connection to the WordPress server.
    (Check if you have same difficulties when commentinf at some newspaper, for example.)

  48. A – I’m not having any trouble loading your blog or mine. What a pain for you! Pesky little gnomes. I recently listened to a lecture by Eugene Schwartz who mentioned that computers are Ahriman’s domain? what is the meaning of this?

    If you aren’t much for handwork, you might feel a little uncomfortable at my house we have knitting needles and wool all over, though my honey might like to have some support. Wool makes him cringe. Sounds like such a gift to have crafty grandmother, my grandmother likes shoes.

  49. Diana, thank you for your reaction and information.
    Alicia, I knew you had a very bad time, but apparently it was far more worse than I thought.
    I am very sorry. I hope you can still see it as an attempt to understand your position better.

  50. ‘Sadly I suspect that arriving at Novosibirsk may not be as exciting as travelling there. But I have never been to Novosibirsk.’

    Probably quite exotic, in a freezing way.

    ‘I’m reminded of my daughter’s talent at her stringed instrument – even though her school does its very best to crush her creativity.’

    I hate stringed instruments. And flutes. Awfull things. Oh, I hate the piano too. Playing them myself, that is.

    ‘Revolution spreads to Dornach!’

    You have to go there, you know. Gather around the Goetheanum with anti-Prokofieff posters! He isn’t on the internet, he thinks it’s evil.

    ‘Join us in the ethereal kiosk where Rudi has tuned his ukulele and Saul has written an ode to the death of dictatorships. We have champagne and we have nuts. Boy, do we have nuts.’

    Indeed. Nuts of all kinds. Thankfully, nut allergy doesn’t exist in the ethereal realm!

  51. Thetis: ‘I’m sitting here with two terriers and an air-rifle, any sign of gnomes and bom-bom.’

    Gnome life is dangerous, not only among waldorf teachers. However, when gnomes infest my computer connection, they deserve to be shot. Really, they ought to know I’m on their side against the waldorf teachers.

    Margaret: ‘In my experience it is the Mother that has the greatest voice when it comes to choosing education for her child.’

    True. I think that’s the most common situation anyway, but hopefully fathers are getting more involved nowadays. As compared to when I was a kid in ancient times, 3 decades ago…

    ‘why aren’t parents seeking this information out? That to me is the biggest question.’

    Because they want to live in the dream. They want to believe all these fantastic things can be true, because anything else reminds them of the fact that their own precious child will have to survive harsh reality like everybody else…! I think they don’t want to see the warnings signs, they don’t want to be fully aware. It would destroy an illusion they somehow need.

    ‘I wonder what would happen if more fathers got involved in the child’s education?’

    At least there’d be one more person to see these warning signs. Two minds ought to be more likely to spot the problems than just one. Both parents need to be more involved. Of course, in reality it isn’t always easy. Some fathers, as Mark wrote, sure display the blindness too — but this could only happen to fathers who are already involved. I don’t think my father was ever smitten by the waldorf/anthro love bug, he simply ignored the entire thing; he didn’t see it as his area to meddle with, except for paying the bills…

    ‘I suspect a waldorf father would go along with this education if only to keep the peace and keep mother happy.’

    And, sometimes, because they don’t get involved enough to find out there’s anything in it to be worried about. This would apply to some mothers too, of course, but I think it’s still more common with fathers.


    Jan L:


    ‘The Waldorf school could not handle that correctly. You did not feel understood nor recognized. Now you see the same kind of parents bringing their children to the Waldorf school as in your time. You see that the school system did not change very much. They represent the ones who have hurt you so much. You want to shake them up en tell them “do you know what you are doing?” The same you want to say to the schools.’

    I didn’t see the full comment until now (I remember I replied to Diana’s quote the other day; I had huge technical problems reading the thread…) but: this is spot on. As Diana pointed out, the problems were a bit more extensive, sure, but regardless of it, the analysis isn’t off. It’s true — I see they say and do exactly what the said and did then, and I obviously see that people will run into the same issues that plagued my childhood. Also, this is verified by lots of people whose experiences with waldorf are much closer in time than mine are.

    ‘Your criticism becomes harder and you want to “hurt them back”. But you don’t want to hurt because of the hurting, you want that they admit they are not perfect, that mistakes were made, and still are being made. You want to see that they can look to themselves and be open for criticism.’

    In a way, yes. Though I don’t want to hurt them back, at least not consciously. I wanted to do that. I don’t want it anymore. Also, my criticism has become much softer. I may swear and curse as much, or even more, but the criticism sure is much softer. The more I’ve learnt (i e, not learnt from my own experiences) the more I see that you could surely derive some inspiration from Steiner’s ideas, for example. Four years ago, I would have entirely excluded that possibility. And I was much angrier. Much much much angrier!

  52. Diana: ‘I hate to constantly be the voice of cynicism, but has it not crossed your mind that the reason for this is money? There aren’t enough anthroposophists to pay the fees.’

    Indeed. They could never have expanded as much as they have done, were it not for the fact that they don’t require anthroposophy. (They’re helped by the fact that Steiner didn’t intend it to be a school for children of anthroposophically inclined parents only. It’s about the child’s spirit, not parental beliefs. Though in reality what they’re appealing to are the dreams of parents, not so much the dreams of children…)

    ‘Angels are often pretty mean, like gnomes.’

    Moreover, stories about them are eventually bound to bore even the most patient child to death. Waldorf is a constant over-dose of these beings.

  53. Dear L – a house full of wool & needles sounds lovely, as well as a house full of books or a house full of stringed instruments (as long as people have progressed beyond the screeching stage). Steiner school encouraged me to knit, which I loved, I knitted lots of animals stuffed with sheep’s wool I had washed and carded myself. My small children cut them open to see what was inside. My elephant looked like a deranged ant-eater. I wasn’t very good but it was rather charming. That has nothing to do with anthroposophy though, which I didn’t understand the significance of till much later. You can knit in your own time, of course.

    Ahriman – Roger Rawlings is good:

    http://sites.google.com/site/waldorfwatch/ahriman

    http://sites.google.com/site/waldorfwatch/thinking

    Clearly this sort of stuff in schools is not going to appeal to humanists or intellectuals. Or people who like children imo.

  54. alfa: ‘Alicia, I have send you an email.’

    Thanks. Yes, I have a fast connection, and everything else works — except wordpress and delicious (bookmarks). Still behaving erratically today, but situation somewhat better than yesterday. My laptop is only 2 years old, a rather splendid Sony Vaio (not the cheapest but not the most expensive either), running on Linux (which is, in my opinion, much faster and simpler than windows — given that you don’t get all the windows junk). About the http vs https thingy — strange! Could possibly have to do with you commenting via your Gravatar-profile? I need to check this out. I see the http version now, I can’t remember ever seeing the https with wordpress, but it may be that I haven’t looked.

    The comment held for moderation was held because of the three links. (It would be splendid if wordpress didn’t hold comments with blog-internal links, since they aren’t bound to be spam… but, well, it does…)

    ‘(Also: in case the a/s/w keeping track at Zooey’s blog got the impression I got tired of revealing their true face: no, but I am busy with other aspects of my live.)’

    Good point!

    JanL: ‘I am very sorry. I hope you can still see it as an attempt to understand your position better.’

    No worries at all, Jan. It’s a long time ago, and I personally think other people have had it worse than I did in waldorf. The difference is I keep writing about it! And then, also, there’s my temperament — which, honestly, makes everything seem much worse the anyone reading what I write. I’ve noticed that my style tends to lead people to believe I’m much angrier and much more hurt than I am. I don’t intend it, but it does have certain consequences. (In anthro terms, I’ve probably gone from being a predominantely melancholic to being a choleric-melancholic, equal measures of each ;-))

  55. ‘Clearly this sort of stuff in schools is not going to appeal to […] people who like children imo.’

    He! Should appeal to me ;-)

    (WordPress is acting up again. Have to wait forever for each comment or to load anything at all. May have to leave it for a few hours again, because it’s so frustrating. It still makes no sense that it should be like this.)

  56. I have removed the delicious-widget, I have disabled AdBlock, I can still not use wordpress or delicious. This is increasingly frustrating. I can’t do anything at all at the moment.

    Why all other websites work as normal, and the two I use the most don’t, is a complete mystery.

  57. ‘Though in reality what they’re appealing to are the dreams of parents, not so much the dreams of children…)’

    Alicia – you’re remarkable. Odd certainly, but remarkable. You do actually listen to people, more should do this.

  58. I’ve been trying to solve this problem for 3 days now, and NOTHING works. Other browsers, settings, NOTHING.

    I will now proceed to cut my computer into pieces with a butcher’s knife. Because I can’t stand this anymore. I don’t care about the photos, I don’t care about the harddrive. I need to get to things on the internet, I need to be able to reach this blog, I need my bookmarks.

    I know this is a trifle to people who change poops from nappies and wipe up vomit from children, but really I don’t care. I can’t stand MY LIFE without a computer and an internet connection. It’s ok when I know it’s working, then I can do other things. But when I know it isnt’ working, it’s ALL I can think about.

    I keep repeating IT IS NOT WORKING and my mind is looping madly. I can’t live like this. It eats me up.

    There’s NOTHING wrong with the computer. There’s NOTHING wrong with the internet connection either. Everything works fine. Except the blog and the bookmarks. I don’t get it.

    And I can’t describe the problem so I can’t solve it. I mean I can’t describe it in technical terms so it would be futile to try.

  59. It’s like HOUR after FUCKING HOUR trying to get wordpress to react to what I’m doing and it JUST REFUSES. It’s loading and loading, and posting billions of comments or no comments at all. It tells me I post duplicates when I’ve managed to post nothing at all and then it all comes through all of them at once because I pressed ‘submit reply’ again and again and again in frustration. Writing posts — well, I’d better forget about it. It doesn’t work.

    I hate my life.

  60. It’s the kind of thing which makes me so destructive I can have a go at anything. I’m trying to get my mind to not race, but it won’t stop. I try to stop my jaws from biting so hard that the teeth start to ache. I CAN’T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I’m SO ANGRY and frustrated.

    I’ve spent ALL day trying to solve this, and it won’t be solved. If it’s like this tomorrow… I can’t even think about it. I can’t stand one day of being this angry, frustrated and, at this point, totally depressed.

  61. This, by the way, is why I shouldn’t EVER EVER EVER have any children or be close to children. I have anger issues this bad. I would want to strangle the kid everytime it pooped.

    Honestly. Like I want to strangle my computer now.

  62. I also, by the way again, hate having to wear glasses. They have destroyed my life. They are a great help when reading, sure, but I’m getting more and more trouble doing without them. And with them on I can’t take pictures.

    It’s like something I really valued has been RIPPED away. I don’t know if I should completely stop using the glasses, and stop reading because I can’t read without them. Or if I should wear them and stop taking photos.

    It’s like either or. I don’t even know if I can get back to where I was before I got them. Even if I wanted to, I don’t know. My brain did compensate for the skewing, which was very tiring, of course, but it could compensate. If I stop using the eye-glasses, will it learn this again? To the same level it used to?

    The glasses are in the way, I can’t use the camera with them on, and I fear soon I won’t be able to use it with them off either, like I can’t read without them. Lenses would work with the camera, but they say I can’t have any lenses. I must have the glasses.

    It’s actually depressing beyond belief. It means everything to me, and to the so-called experts (who were apparently right this time because I got glasses that actually help… were it not for my photo hobby), it’s like ‘oh big deal do something else’.

    It’s like nobody gets that it means so much. It’s not like I can live with myself if I do what people think I should do, be happy that I have glasses and get rid of the camera because after all it’s just a camera. It’s not JUST a camera. I need it. I do. It’s no joke.

  63. It’s like people think I could just start doing music or knitting or wipe up kids’ vomit. It’s like to other people taking pictures is just not that important. (In fact, to most people diapers are more important than pictures.)

    So, what’s the big deal? Hey, play the flute. It’s a hobby as good as any other. Not to me though.

    I’ve been struggling without the glasses for a couple of hours, trying to get my brain back on track with the skewing. I have a headache.

    But maybe I should learn to live with the headaches. It’s better to have headaches than to be depressed. If one is to choose, and apparently one has to. If I haven’t destroyed my brain with the glasses, maybe it can’t get back to what it was, I fear it.

    And I know everybody thinks — everybody I know of anyway — that, oh it’s such a blessing, finally glasses that work. But in a way it would have been much better if they hadn’t, then I wouldn’t be in this impossible situation.

  64. Tom: ‘Alicia, seriously, have you thought that maybe Sune has hacked your blog?’

    Well, I certainly don’t think he has. Sune may do many silly things, but I doubt that would be one of them. Plus the glue-like situation seems to affect only me, not other visitors.

    I changed the password yesterday when I tried to switch to google chrome. (Not because I suspected I was hacked, but because I was refused to log in.)

    Margaret: Haha!! Yes, I begin to think this is the only thing to do, really.

  65. ‘Alicia, seriously, have you thought that maybe Sune has hacked your blog?’

    Well, I certainly don’t think he has. Sune may do many silly things, but I doubt that would be one of them. Plus the glue-like situation seems to affect only me, not other visitors.

    I changed the password yesterday when I tried to switch to google chrome. (Not because I suspected I was hacked, but because I was refused to log in.)

  66. https://zooey.wordpress.com/2011/02/10/to-jarna-with-love-xiv/#comment-6974
    margaret:
    ‘why aren’t parents seeking this information out? That to me is the biggest question.’

    https://zooey.wordpress.com/2011/02/10/to-jarna-with-love-xiv/#comment-7018
    Alicia:
    “Because they want to live in the dream. They want to believe all these fantastic things can be true, because anything else reminds them of the fact that their own precious child will have to survive harsh reality like everybody else…! I think they don’t want to see the warnings signs, they don’t want to be fully aware. It would destroy an illusion they somehow need.”

    Yes, Alicia. That’s it. I have observed that, too, while a part of a Waldorf school for a while.

  67. I keep switching between FF and Opera. When FF refuses to post my comments, I copy paste to Opera and try there. And vice versa. Opera works a little bit better most of the time. But I’m so unused to it. I’m too old to learn new things.

  68. alfa — yes, I think it’s quite apparent, though I also suspect that parents, when they’re into it, or still sort of spell-bound, don’t really realize it. But generally, and this is pretty easy to observe (on the internet, and I’d say in reality too), they’re hooked on dreams about what childhood ought to be, ideally. I’m sure other parents are too, but it seems to me waldorf parents are often more extreme. They want to protect their children, but end up being unrealistic about it, trying to achieve what cannot be achieved.

    As for the loading in no-time, it’s good to hear! A bit frustrating, too, because at this point I’d be almost relieved if the problem was universal and not on my end.

    I don’t know if I need to sacrifice a eurythmist to Ahriman. He’s in charge, after all. Hmm. Maybe he fell asleep and left the internet open to the impulses of the christ-impulse?

  69. alfa — well, 3 times longer is ok if it’s 3 times no time ;-) My comment above took around two minutes, I guess. With me, frustraded, clicking on ‘post comment’ 79 times over the last of these 2 minutes…

  70. I’m still obsessing about this computer problem. I tried to figure out which hard drives were compatible with linux, though obviously the website which would tell me is unreachable. Well, two of them. They aren’t down. It’s just that none of my browsers can display them.

  71. sacrifice a eurythmist to Ahriman’ – it’s worth a try, surely?

    A question: has anyone ever met a fat eurythmist? Is it allowed?

  72. We had a slightly over-weight eurythmy teacher in first grade. Perhaps second, I don’t remember. But she was a bit round.

    Later eurythmists were not. Most of them aren’t.

    I think I will have to. There’s nothing else to do. I’m very desperate now.

  73. Blimey. It may have worked. The spiritual worlds have responded to my promise of sacrifice. Either that, or someone flushed out the stuck gnomes. Maybe st michael finally needed to go to the loo.

  74. A while ago I had a father that told me that when he attended waldorf as a child and that he did not want to talk about eurythmy – he hated it.
    As a whole I wonder how boys fare in eurythmy? I understand boys get a good dose of eurythmy if they are having learning difficulties.

  75. That is exactly what I thought.

    Perhaps they would let us have one of the slightly fatter ones, or perhaps a fatter one wouldn’t be able to get away fast enough.

    Anyway I goggled ‘fat eurythmist’ just in case, and this came up:

  76. We went out just now, mr D and I. It was very, very cold (-12,2 degrees C two hours ago, according to info on the internet). Almost impossible to walk because the city has run out of sand. Or maybe not, but at least they aren’t pouring any of it on the pavements. We tried to take a longer walk earlier in the day, but same problem then… Very slippery.

    I actually like winter, but somehow in mid-february I think it’s enough. It began so early this season. And last week was promising — felt like spring. Now this: freezing temperatures, lots of snow, awful ice in the streets.

    Even mr D had some trouble walking on the ice — and that’s rare. 4-legs construction usually helps. So you can imagine what I looked like.

  77. In northern Sweden they have will have -40 some nights this week. I heard it on the news. We don’t really have it as bad in Stockholm — -20 perhaps, at worst, but it isn’t that common. It isn’t so bad either — it depends more on humidity and winds. Sometimes -5 is worse. Now it felt really cold (even for me, and I rarely have any issues with cold), so I guess the conditions for freezing are favourable.

    Margaret: ‘ A while ago I had a father that told me that when he attended waldorf as a child and that he did not want to talk about eurythmy – he hated it.
    As a whole I wonder how boys fare in eurythmy?’

    Most of them hated it, and had more difficulty adapting than most girls. Statistically speaking I think boys were having more issues with it, but on individual level people differed of course.

    I understand him, eurythmy gives me the creeps…

    The older the kids were, the more they acted out (started fights, et c), and generally boys were worse. But girls hated it too, though perhaps in a way which didn’t cause quite as much trouble for the group and the teacher. Bad enough, but not as bad.

    Thetis — if eurythmists look anything like that, I’ll send mr D to catch one! Piece of cake! But what’s mr Bunny doing with a pancake on his head? (Maybe better not ask. It’s usually no point asking eurythmists what they really want that copper rod for either.)

  78. I don’t need to tell you, do I, that I find children utterly scary and nasty. I find them totally unreliable. Show me a 3 year old and I will think it’s entirely capable of slicing my throat with a knife. The only experience I have with children is that they’re completely evil and that you should stay as far away as possible.

    I’m not joking. When I was a kid, all kids were awful. I feel children are much worse than gnomes, as far as evil goes.

    I have these great fears — one is my the deterioration of my eyes, the other is computers that don’t work (though that’s not as much fear as frustration, I suppose…!!), the third (and this one is as scary as number one, the eyes) is having children in the family. Because I know that if my brother chooses to have children, I won’t be able to be a part of the family anymore. Which would perhaps be ok, to some extent, were it not for the blaming that would ensue. Were it not for the fact that nobody ever seems to get how big issues there are. It’s not just about ‘getting over it’. It’s not about being an adult. I felt, when I was younger, that if my brother ever brought children into the picture, I’d have to isolate myself from the situation. Being 33, it’s not getting any better, I simply can’t deal with it. What is getting worse is him getting older, the risks increasing all the time; so far he’s been too young, still in education et c. He’s much younger than me, thank Dog, so I’ve not had to seriously consider this.

    But honestly — I know this, if it happens (I pray to Ahriman it doesn’t), will make everything miserable. And it will make my mum resent me because I’m still not able to cope.

    I despised having a sibling. And everybody was like ‘oh a BABY!!! it’s so cute’ and all I felt was yuck. Disgusting.

    It’s going to happen all over again. Of course, when I was 8 years old, it was easy to excuse. They didn’t force the baby upon me, I had nothing to do with it, and I wasn’t expected to. Well, maybe I was expected to, but it was soon discovered it wasn’t to be. (I’m so grateful they realized that, because I could have ended up despising babies even more.) But the expectations on people 30+ are… somewhat different. At least you’re supposed to cope, and I can’t.

    I still feel children are these awful, pooping, vomiting, screaming, nasty and evil things. And a few years old, they become dangerous. They’re out to hurt you and harm you as much as they can. They actually cause physical stress, that’s how uncomfortable I am.

    It’s fine with me when kids want to say hello to mr D, because he’s ok with it, he likes it. But my own interaction with them is entirely nervous, like a bunny in the jaws of a wolf. I know not all children are awful, but I suspect 99.9% are unbearable.

    It seems so odd to me that I’m the only one who have realized children are very very mean. They are the meanest kinds of homo sapiens. If these beings could handle guns, they’d be shooting people all the time. I think most people in my kindergarten were prepared to kill, if they had had the means to do it. They had to settle for less evil methods, but the ferocity, the will to kill, was certainly in them. In a uncontrolled manner, unlike with most adults.

  79. everything is relative –
    I see 3- 4 year old children as delightful! They live in the present moment and carry no emotional baggage.
    I know this will sound like complete rubbish to a waldorf teacher!

  80. Diana: It seems to work now. But it was really strange. Some websites (most) worked perfectly, others not at all. I can’t say I know what I’m doing when it comes to computer security, but compared to windows computers, linux systems are supposed to be very safe. It’s just not something I’ve worried about since I changed to linux, but maybe I should.

    Margaret: ‘I see 3- 4 year old children as delightful! They live in the present moment and carry no emotional baggage.’

    Haha! When I was a 3 year old… I carried an entire dumpster of emotional baggage… or emotional garbage!

  81. Actually, I think that when I was 3-4 I was clinically depressed. I was definitely not a delightful child — neither for me or for people around me. I was either afraid or angry; either screaming or irresponsive. I was in constant fear about what would happen, not able to live in the moment at all. I was an insomniac. And it had been going on for years. Maybe it isn’t emotional baggage when you’re an infant, but being constantly unhappy is emotional. Or it’s about pain. But you can never know because you can’t ask an infant. You can’t do anything to relieve their suffering. You can’t ease the depression of a 3 year old either. Most of all, adults don’t want to see children this young as disturbed, so they think it will pass. For some people it never does, not entirely. As an adult, at least you’re free, to some degree. But as a child you’re depressed and captive, you’re desperate but can’t do a thing about it.

    (I’m a lot more delightful now than I was as a 3 year old. I’m a lot easier to be around. Believe it or not.)

  82. A – I have observed young children who seem more conscious, more awake if you will.

    So let’s take this child (who is also precocious) and have the parent enroll him in a waldorf preschool – k program.

    Here we have a child at the mercy of a waldorf teacher who thinks she knows the child better than the parents. A teacher that works hard to connect the child to fantasy and disconnect him from his desire for something real.

    An anthroposophy believing waldorf teacher who has yet to work thorough his/her own emotional baggage is of no help to a young child.

    Now we have a child who can’t get through the fog (Roger’s description) – because he is constantly being told to avoid what is real and be content in fantasy or illusion.

    This would cause great injury to a young child’s psyche.

  83. Well, Tom, I have scolded her for having me.

    Margaret: ‘So let’s take this child (who is also precocious) and have the parent enroll him in a waldorf preschool – k program.

    Here we have a child at the mercy of a waldorf teacher who thinks she knows the child better than the parents. A teacher that works hard to connect the child to fantasy and disconnect him from his desire for something real. ‘

    Indeed. According to waldorf dogma, I was ‘wrong’ in every aspect and every way.

    ‘Now we have a child who can’t get through the fog (Roger’s description) – because he is constantly being told to avoid what is real and be content in fantasy or illusion.’

    Indeed again. There’s a huge gap there — between what the teachers expect (or foist upon you) and what you experience. The adults busy weaving this illusion, while the children are actually alive and real (and treat each other in ways which reinforce the horrors of reality; most kids aren’t too bothered about it, some, like me, are).

    I never really understood what they expected of me. I mean, the kindergarten teachers. Illusion, yes, but at the time I had no idea what it was all about.

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